Jay520 said:
timmah said:
1. I said 'at least' as powerful as the universe which He created. Our ability to describe Him can only go so far. My point is we use our limited intellect and frame of reference to describe something that is so outside the realm of our own understanding as to be indescribable and unknowable in scope and magnitude as related to our finite understanding. The term 'all powerful' is a term that is based upon a frame of reference. Any aspects of this beyond our own space/time limits is purely theoretical or religious. If you look at various religious texts, there are intra-dimensional beings described as having been created by the creator, so in a religious/faith discussion we can argue that the Creator can and has created things outside the constraints and laws of the universe. In a discussion outside of religion/faith, this is of course unprovable and unknowable.
2. Does 'all knowing' mean having all Wisdom, or knowing every single thing that is happening at any given moment? This is a very long and deep discussion with many theories and doctrines. If you were to design and create a computer system and know how every single circuit and line of code works, then give that computer system to a friend, you would have 'all knowledge' about that computer, but not necessarily know at every moment what your friend is doing on that computer. On the other hand, you could design the system to report back to you every single aspect of it's use, so could also theoretically make a way to know everything about both the computer's functions, and the way it is being used. There are multiple beliefs on this subject and I'm not really sure where I fall on this one to be honest.
3. This is largely based off faith, Some faiths see God as a tyrranical ruler that requires strict obedience or wants us killed, some faiths believe He is a loving creator that decided to give us a way to better ourselves and find forgiveness. (Taken from my post below): "If (the sake of this discussion) you accept the axiom that humanity was created, then consider the idea that we are created 'in the image' of the creator, you would only need to then understand the love a father or mother has for their newly born child." Christians also make the argument that He loved humanity so much that He actually came down as a man, but without accepting that...
4. If He is not only outside of space as we define it, but also outside of time, He could in theory interact with any person/situation at any time, therefore having the ability to be everywhere at once. Since our only frame of reference is from inside time, this theoretical concept is difficult to describe. We are obviously constrained to time, so how could we even imagine what it would mean to be outside time? We know there are wavelengths of light (and therefore theoretical colors) that we can't see, but try for a second to imagine a color you've never seen. Based on your frame of reference, those colors cannot be imagined.
5. I guess one non-religious argument that could be made for a single creator would be the in the harmony of physical laws and the similarities seen in the building blocks of life (amino acids, DNA, RNA, etc.). The harmony of all aspects of creation would point to a single designer if we assume the universe was designed/created.
6. That's based on faith and would tie back to the end of what I said in point 3.
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1. I personally don’t believe in an “all-powerful” Creator. I’m just using the terms used by some theists. So I don’t really know what their definition of “all-powerful” is. Does it mean “all-powerful” as it applies to the limits of our understanding, or is it based on power even beyond our understanding of the universe, which dives into theory as you said? Obviously I do not know. But since I assume you believe in an “all-powerful” Creator (since I assume you’re a Christian), perhaps you could elaborate on your own definition of the term and why you believe that term would apply to a Creator.
2. Again, I don’t know what these terms strictly mean. Moreover, I’m sure many different theists have different interpretations of these terms. I created this thread to ask about the reasoning behind people who do believe these things. I want to know why they personally believe in these things. So if you believe in an all-knowing Creator, I’m interested in your personal reasons for doing so. But I see you’re not sure where you fall on this, so there’s nothing really for you to elaborate on.
3. I don’t see the logic in believing that we were made “in the image” of the creator. What is there to support this claim? Some might say this is because we are the most intelligent species in existence, but I think this is a huge assumption. We are only aware of a tiny fraction of space even within our own galaxy. There was a fairly recent discovery that discovered dozens of Earth-like planets that could be suitable for life; and that was just in our galaxy (I can find the link if you want). There are millions (I think) other galaxies in the universe – that we know of. I think it’s extremely premature to assume we are the most intelligent species in the existence considering our extremely limited knowledge. Bur perhaps you have a different explanation for why we were made “in the image” of the creator. What might that be?
4. To be honest, I don’t understand the idea of an entity existing outside time and space. If he’s not in space, where the hell is he? And if he’s not in time….when the hell is he? I know this supports you point about our limited knowledge and I agree. This belief seems more like a leap of faith because we’ve never encountered anything like it. To me a belief in a timeless, spaceless Creator seems no more believable than a universe starting on its own (or some other theory); all of them are equally bizarre. In fact, the timeless, spaceless Creator seems actually less believable because it includes an entity we can’t observe while still being just as inexplicable as the other theories.
5. What specific similarities are you referring to?
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1. Any of the words we use to describe the creator are based on our frame of reference, so the exact nature of the term is the subject of much discussion even in the Christian community. From my perspective, all-powerful. What does that mean in an absolute perspective? If I find somebody who knows, I'll let you know, lol. Since I assume God would be the only one with a real answer to this, I'll try to contact you after I die if you're still around XD. I've already stated my belief in this aspect of the term based on the idea of this creator being the force/cause behind the 'big bang'.
2. Something I enjoy discussing with my Christian friends, but not something I have a firm grasp of. I like to be in a state of always asking, always listening, always learning, so maybe I'll eventually come to a better conclusion on this one.
3. This is based on our understanding of the Creator we believe to be described in the bible, he is creative, uses reason, has the capacity for love, mercy, anger, frustration, etc. We are not an exact image of the creator, but have the potential to exhibit many of his positive qualities, as well as misuse the potentially negative ones since we have free will (anger and frustration are not inherintly bad, but can be used for evil in the wrong hands). I wouldn't be surprised if there were other life out there, the bible never states otherwise
4. I can understand your perspective here, I've been both a skeptic and believer at different points in my life, so that gives me a unique perspective on both sides of the discussion. The reason it's called faith is because, well, when it comes down to it there will always be some aspect of the 'leap of faith' you describe.
5. All forms of multicellular life are 'built' using the same system of what is essentially a design blueprint stored in an incredibly complex code based off the same building blocks of amino acids, peptide chains, DNA, RNA. If these life forms were created, it would be logical to assume they were designed by the same 'architect'.
