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Forums - General Discussion - Why Christianity is Fundamentally Flawed

Areym said:
How can people live by just believe? 

While we should not force them to get rid of their religion, we can at least make them question it. If you really sit down and look at all the stuff in christianity, the stories, etc, it sounds like some crazy shit. 


Why does it matter to you how other people live their lives?  You know what else sounds pretty crazy?  That our existence was formed by accident when the big bang occurred tens of billions of years ago, a theory that even today within the scientific community does not have universal acceptance.   The fact is that there's not a single person in existence who knows the truth to all things, be it religious, secular, or academic.  You can question anything you want, but there's not always an answer out there.  



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get off my thread



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

One thing that close to all Christians have in common is that they all believe that we have a free will. They say that God created all humans and gave them free will, allowing them to choose how they want to live their lives. After your life has ended, God will take a look at how you decided to live your life and will determine whether you deserve to live in heaven or hell for an eternity. And due to your free will, you would have no one but yourself to blame for entering hell (or heaven, depending on your preferences).

Now, let's create a hypothetical scenario: One kid is raised in a "godless" family, and is experiencing a perfectly decent upbringing. He is somewhat aware of how God supposedly works and knows some basic lines of the Bible. His parent though are strictly nonreligious and ridicules everything regarding religion on a daily basis whenever they have the chance. This obviously has a strong effect on the kid's views on religion and believers, resulting in him more or less copying their views on the matter. The neighborhood however is strictly religious, resulting in close to all neighbors reporting the kid's parent for child abuse, fearing that further 'mistreatment' may cause him to be more easily tempted by the devil in the future (or alternatively fearing that he will have a more difficult time to connect with God), thus increasing the odds of the kid (and his future relatives) entering hell after death. The social services happens to be controlled by strict believers as well, and in the end they decide that the kid will be taken away from his parents and be put in a more religious environment. Now, let's take a look at the possible outcomes:

 

Result 1 - Whether the kid eventually enters heaven or hell is affected by this decision

This means that thanks to the social services' actions, the kid became influenced by its new and more religious environment, and eventually ended up in heaven as a result. He decided to put his lack of faith away, and started a new life. Had the social services not taken action, then the kid would not have ended up in heaven since he would have made different decisions in life without this new influence. (Note: In an alternative scenario he might as well be mistreated and chances of entering hell increases instead.)

 

Result 2 - Whether the kid eventually enters heaven or hell is unaffected by this decision

This means that taking the kid away from his parents does not have any effect at all on whether he enters heaven or hell once he dies. In the end, it all comes down to the actual free parts of your will, while opinions and unconscious actions based on the many outer influences (in this case, influences by an upbringing in a religious environment) are completely disregarded since you had no control over them.

 

In case you haven't already noticed it yourself, here is the flaw that I find in all this: The first result suggests that teaching a child about Christianity increases its chances of entering heaven. The free will does not have full control of whether you enter heaven or hell, and outer influences will affect where you end up in your afterlife, thus giving an unfair disadvantage to those not exposed to proper Christian teachings. An important conclusion that one may draw here is that the more countries/people that would be properly educated about Christianity, the more people would go to heaven. In other words: Their (the non-/false believers') free will does not have full control over their final destination, but are directly affected by the "proper" believers' free wills. Again, this is unfair.

The second result suggests that outer influences has no effect on whether you end up in heaven or hell at all. No teachings gained from outer influences can be accounted for since they have no effect on your actual free will. If they did, then that would suggest that people with "better" outer influences (which they obviously have no control over) would also have a better chance of entering heaven, which would be an unfair advantage. An important conclusion that one may draw at this point is that all religious practicing might as well be disregarded since they will not affect your chances of entering heaven anyway. In other words: Religious practicing would ultimately be pointless.

 

This, my fellow VGCharterz, makes no sense to me.

You arguement has some flaws in it so I will start there. First of Heaven/Hell, not all Christians believe there is a hell and the wagdes sin give is just death or inexistance. Plus the Bible brings out there are two(three) gifts that God gives the two major ones are pictured by the little/large flock that Jesus, John and Paul spoke about on a few occasions. The little flock gift is going to heaven where they will act as priests and judges with Jesus. The second larger flock will inherit the earth, after all that was God's orginal purpose for man and the earth and as Isaiah wrote God purpose never chages. (He compared God's word to the water cycle. That it will not come back to him unless it achieved.) And humans where never intended to go heaven.

The next flaw is thinking all Christians are considered acceptable to God. Jesus spoke of the judgement in the parable of the Sheep and the Goats. What make this interesting is the goats plea to Jesus. "Didn't we speak in your name? Didn't we prophise in your name? Didn't we expell demons in your name? Didn't we preform many powerful works in your name?" So from these we can glean that they thought they were doing God's and Jesus' will, or by extension thought they were Christian. The way to tell false Christians from real could fill up a thesis so I will leave it at that.

But that brings us to the third gift. Brought out in Acts 24:15 that there will be a resurection of not just the rightous but also the unrightous. These are those deemed that finished their lives and didn't have enough information or ability to make a choice.  John futher covers this at John 5:28,29 that the resurrect unrightous will be resurrect to a resurrection of judgement. And this life they will be taught the ways of God and at the end of that time Satan will be released again to tempt these ones and at that time they will make their choice again.

I have to get to work which is the reason I haven't fully articulated my arguement or put all the scriptures up.



get out of my thread you trolls



BlkPaladin said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

You arguement has some flaws in it so I will start there. First of Heaven/Hell, not all Christians believe there is a hell and the wagdes sin give is just death or inexistance. Plus the Bible brings out there are two(three) gifts that God gives the two major ones are pictured by the little/large flock that Jesus, John and Paul spoke about on a few occasions. The little flock gift is going to heaven where they will act as priests and judges with Jesus. The second larger flock will inherit the earth, after all that was God's orginal purpose for man and the earth and as Isaiah wrote God purpose never chages. (He compared God's word to the water cycle. That it will not come back to him unless it achieved.) And humans where never intended to go heaven.

The next flaw is thinking all Christians are considered acceptable to God. Jesus spoke of the judgement in the parable of the Sheep and the Goats. What make this interesting is the goats plea to Jesus. "Didn't we speak in your name? Didn't we prophise in your name? Didn't we expell demons in your name? Didn't we preform many powerful works in your name?" So from these we can glean that they thought they were doing God's and Jesus' will, or by extension thought they were Christian. The way to tell false Christians from real could fill up a thesis so I will leave it at that.

But that brings us to the third gift. Brought out in Acts 24:15 that there will be a resurection of not just the rightous but also the unrightous. These are those deemed that finished their lives and didn't have enough information or ability to make a choice.  John futher covers this at John 5:28,29 that the resurrect unrightous will be resurrect to a resurrection of judgement. And this life they will be taught the ways of God and at the end of that time Satan will be released again to tempt these ones and at that time they will make their choice again.

I have to get to work which is the reason I haven't fully articulated my arguement or put all the scriptures up.


Bolded: I never claimed that all Christians believed in heaven and hell. I did say though that close to all did, which was an uneducated guess on my part. In any case, a general consensus seems to be that Christians tend to believe in a heaven and a hell, and I wanted to target the majority of them.

Italics: I am fairly certain that the "Result 2" in the OP got this part covered, in which I made it clear that religious practicing in no way makes sure or even increases the chances of entering heaven. I mean, only after death you will be able to have the complete information required to make a perfectly educated decision purely out of free will.



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Player1x3 said:

Wow, you're really insanely obsessed with Christianity, aren't you? You talk about it waay more than any christian person here does.

You need to get out of your head the idea that we aren't some monkeys in a circus or puppets that are being controlled by the environment. You need to realize that people ARE ABLE to to make their own mind and create their own personalities DESPITE their environment and circumstances. Humans aren't the shallow, naive and weak pussies as you make them to be. They don't necessarily bow to the situation they find themselves in, spread their ass cheeks and say ''well, it's not my fault i turned out like this'. Some people are actually able to take credit and responsibility for their actions and say ' i did/caused this myself, and i made this out of myself BECAUSE of myself'. Now, of course, you ACTUALLY being the type of people you describe in your threads, you can't possibly understand that concept, because you've probably been taught to think like that by your society. (aka Sweden, where everybody pretends everybody is super nice and good, and the minute something goes wrong, you start blaming the environment, childhood, family and other bullshit aspects, because you know, the individual can't possibly have any responsibility)

You use the same arguments to defend convicts as well (rapists, murderers, thieves etc), the good old ''they were influenced by the events in their lives, so they had no control of what those events could lead them into doing'' Bullshit. You can find the examples where the kids from richest families, nicest parents and who had every tool possible for succses in the world still turned out to be complete failures and fuck ups life. And you can also find examples where people from the dirtiest slums of India managed to become successful and respected lawyers, engineers, programmers etc...

Your society, environment, and circumstances of your life do not even remotely defiy your free will. If you really want something, you're gonna get it despite the challenges you face. We can control on how we turn out to be because of the free will. We can choose not to bow to the difficulties and situations.


To specifically answer to the OP, the result 2 is the correct one. The kid entering the heaven will be unaffected by that decision. A pathway to heaven is mostly a personal struggle, traditional religious practicing isn't necessary for it. That depends of course on how you define that. If you say following the specific morals of a religion, i'd probably agree with, but lots of morals aren't exclusive to one religion, so it wouldn't really matter if you pray to Krishna, Allah or Christ, as long as you practice the right morals. I believe that's how you 'get into heaven'. I believe heaven is a metaphor for peace in afterlife with God, and that can be only achieved with what i've described above IMO. So whether that God is called Krishna, Allah or Christ is irrelevant as long as you're in 'heaven'. And that's what religious practice is, IMO

Just one question. Have you actually looked at statistics, or are just one counter-example enough for you?



I LOVE ICELAND!

Right... because you know and understand Christianity more than the tens of thousands of people who have dedicated their lives to studying the purpose and theology of the Church.



 

sperrico87 said:

Right... because you know and understand Christianity more than the tens of thousands of people who have dedicated their lives to studying the purpose and theology of the Church.


At long last, some recognition :)

 

Feel free to discuss the topic, by the way.



BlkPaladin said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

One thing that close to all Christians have in common is that they all believe that we have a free will. They say that God created all humans and gave them free will, allowing them to choose how they want to live their lives. After your life has ended, God will take a look at how you decided to live your life and will determine whether you deserve to live in heaven or hell for an eternity. And due to your free will, you would have no one but yourself to blame for entering hell (or heaven, depending on your preferences).

Now, let's create a hypothetical scenario: One kid is raised in a "godless" family, and is experiencing a perfectly decent upbringing. He is somewhat aware of how God supposedly works and knows some basic lines of the Bible. His parent though are strictly nonreligious and ridicules everything regarding religion on a daily basis whenever they have the chance. This obviously has a strong effect on the kid's views on religion and believers, resulting in him more or less copying their views on the matter. The neighborhood however is strictly religious, resulting in close to all neighbors reporting the kid's parent for child abuse, fearing that further 'mistreatment' may cause him to be more easily tempted by the devil in the future (or alternatively fearing that he will have a more difficult time to connect with God), thus increasing the odds of the kid (and his future relatives) entering hell after death. The social services happens to be controlled by strict believers as well, and in the end they decide that the kid will be taken away from his parents and be put in a more religious environment. Now, let's take a look at the possible outcomes:

 

Result 1 - Whether the kid eventually enters heaven or hell is affected by this decision

This means that thanks to the social services' actions, the kid became influenced by its new and more religious environment, and eventually ended up in heaven as a result. He decided to put his lack of faith away, and started a new life. Had the social services not taken action, then the kid would not have ended up in heaven since he would have made different decisions in life without this new influence. (Note: In an alternative scenario he might as well be mistreated and chances of entering hell increases instead.)

 

Result 2 - Whether the kid eventually enters heaven or hell is unaffected by this decision

This means that taking the kid away from his parents does not have any effect at all on whether he enters heaven or hell once he dies. In the end, it all comes down to the actual free parts of your will, while opinions and unconscious actions based on the many outer influences (in this case, influences by an upbringing in a religious environment) are completely disregarded since you had no control over them.

 

In case you haven't already noticed it yourself, here is the flaw that I find in all this: The first result suggests that teaching a child about Christianity increases its chances of entering heaven. The free will does not have full control of whether you enter heaven or hell, and outer influences will affect where you end up in your afterlife, thus giving an unfair disadvantage to those not exposed to proper Christian teachings. An important conclusion that one may draw here is that the more countries/people that would be properly educated about Christianity, the more people would go to heaven. In other words: Their (the non-/false believers') free will does not have full control over their final destination, but are directly affected by the "proper" believers' free wills. Again, this is unfair.

The second result suggests that outer influences has no effect on whether you end up in heaven or hell at all. No teachings gained from outer influences can be accounted for since they have no effect on your actual free will. If they did, then that would suggest that people with "better" outer influences (which they obviously have no control over) would also have a better chance of entering heaven, which would be an unfair advantage. An important conclusion that one may draw at this point is that all religious practicing might as well be disregarded since they will not affect your chances of entering heaven anyway. In other words: Religious practicing would ultimately be pointless.

 

This, my fellow VGCharterz, makes no sense to me.

You arguement has some flaws in it so I will start there. First of Heaven/Hell, not all Christians believe there is a hell and the wagdes sin give is just death or inexistance. Plus the Bible brings out there are two(three) gifts that God gives the two major ones are pictured by the little/large flock that Jesus, John and Paul spoke about on a few occasions. The little flock gift is going to heaven where they will act as priests and judges with Jesus. The second larger flock will inherit the earth, after all that was God's orginal purpose for man and the earth and as Isaiah wrote God purpose never chages. (He compared God's word to the water cycle. That it will not come back to him unless it achieved.) And humans where never intended to go heaven.

The next flaw is thinking all Christians are considered acceptable to God. Jesus spoke of the judgement in the parable of the Sheep and the Goats. What make this interesting is the goats plea to Jesus. "Didn't we speak in your name? Didn't we prophise in your name? Didn't we expell demons in your name? Didn't we preform many powerful works in your name?" So from these we can glean that they thought they were doing God's and Jesus' will, or by extension thought they were Christian. The way to tell false Christians from real could fill up a thesis so I will leave it at that.

But that brings us to the third gift. Brought out in Acts 24:15 that there will be a resurection of not just the rightous but also the unrightous. These are those deemed that finished their lives and didn't have enough information or ability to make a choice.  John futher covers this at John 5:28,29 that the resurrect unrightous will be resurrect to a resurrection of judgement. And this life they will be taught the ways of God and at the end of that time Satan will be released again to tempt these ones and at that time they will make their choice again.

I have to get to work which is the reason I haven't fully articulated my arguement or put all the scriptures up.


Religion makes people smarter since you are having faith in something you all know is true. Religion is science just believe in magic it makes you a supernintendo like Chalmers.

 

All religions are true and there are over 99 billion gods served at your local McDonalds. ROnald is actually the new-age Jesus. He must of been since he was a hippy in a dashiki. The only thing that doens't make sense is that religion is falsely recited by profits that are just making money from their large corportations. So if you love god buy form Walmart or McDonalds the true saviours of our salvation.



jacks81x said:
Areym said:
How can people live by just believe? 

While we should not force them to get rid of their religion, we can at least make them question it. If you really sit down and look at all the stuff in christianity, the stories, etc, it sounds like some crazy shit. 


Why does it matter to you how other people live their lives?  You know what else sounds pretty crazy?  That our existence was formed by accident when the big bang occurred tens of billions of years ago, a theory that even today within the scientific community does not have universal acceptance.   The fact is that there's not a single person in existence who knows the truth to all things, be it religious, secular, or academic.  You can question anything you want, but there's not always an answer out there.  

Doesn't mean we have to make up fairytales about wizards in the sky. I care for those kids, mostly, who grow up in religious families. They didn't choose their religion but they chose to believe the one their parents embeded into them, what a coincidence.

Seriously, I don't try to impose myself on people, but sometimes I tend to bash religion all together which I know I shouldn't do. My point is that religion (in this case christianity) promotes bliss ignorance, in my honest opinion. Something is happening that we don't understand immediately, "well must be the work of God. You know, he works in mysterious way huehuehuehue" I hear this way too often and it disturbs and bothers me a little more than it should. Besides, the more we grow in knowledge, the more things we figure out that we previously attributed to God's doing, so what does that tell you in the end?

For the record, I don't consider myself atheist, but I don't practice any particular religion. Religion had its purpose but we are a little too old for it as a humans. Lastly, just about any idiot can make a religions now a days with enough followers and cash. Doesn't it feel like a novelty now a days?



"Trick shot? The trick is NOT to get shot." - Lucian