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Forums - General Discussion - If I could not see colors could you help me perceive them?

kain_kusanagi on 19 December 2012
cyberninja45 said:
kain_kusanagi said:
cyberninja45 said:
kain_kusanagi said:
I would listen to tons of classical music and use clips that I think FEEL like the each color.

For example blue might feel like Moonlight Sonata and Yellow might feel like Ode to Joy.

Would that not be very subjective


Yes, but what isn't?

Facts are not subjective

Colors are subjective, just like music. We aren't talking about math.

Ask a professional pigmentation engineer to describe the color Red and you'll get a bunch of facts. Ask a kindergartener to describe red and you will be emotions and/or feels.

If I was going to describe color to the blind I'd rather bring a kindergartener instead of the pigment engineer.



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fordy on 19 December 2012

Who's to say that colours are perceived the same way by different people?



Ganoncrotch on 20 December 2012
dsgrue3 said:
haxxiy said:
dsgrue3 said:
Signalstar said:
It would be futile. You can't prove that we all see colors the same way to begin with.

My red could be your purple and we'd never know.

This entire post is false. We have empirically defined the entire color spectrum. 


How so, by placing it on the spectrum and claiming red is 620-750nm wide? Maybe by studying brain functions when someone contemplates a color?  How much does that tell you what red actually is? Or do you understand the feeling of thrill by studying a molecule of adrenaline and how it physiologically alters the body upon being released into the bloodstream? Nope, you cannot... you need to empirically experience it otherwise you are missing the point here. This kind of information that can only originate from our senses - quale - are one of the strongest arguments for empirism as opposed to rationalism. You can see why this would bother a lot of people and the reason sometimes just cast it aside or dismiss it.

That's why it was so hard to discover daltonism; where people usually perceive the entire spectrum as being shades of yellow and blue. How could you possibly now something was wrong when that's all you ever knew? In fact the only thing those tests do is try to trick people into not seeing a clear pattern of two different colors - to us - among what they perceive as different colors but are actually different tonalities of the same color. It must have taken Dalton a hell of a philosophical effort to realize his rainbow was "different shades of yellow and blue" as himself put it.

If you open a crayon box and it says Red, are you suggesting that the majority of people don't see the same Red?

your brain and eyes are not to be trusted when it comes to color... or much else, a lot of what you "see" is just your brain filling in the blanks of what it thinks it should be seeing

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Grey_square_optical_illusion.PNG in this picture the squares marked A+B are the exact same colour... there is no difference. Don't believe your eyes? or don't believe me, here is a gif of it :) no trickery, just your eyes thinking it is darker because it is in a shadow! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Optical_illusion_greysquares.gif

Colours and shades are not too far from each other, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/ColourIllusion2.jpg the second card as in the pink one he is holding in both these pictures is the exact same shade, most peoples eyes will have a hard time seeing them the same because the surroundings are so different that your eyes just guess the last colour.

Think about it like this, you're in a club or a cinema which has dark or really colourful lights around you, you know for a fact that everything in the room is being coloured by the lights around you.... you take the white ticket from your pocket which you got outside to take a look at it... you see it as white, in a room where there is no chance that the paper should appear white to you, but your brain knows it's white.

 



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dsgrue3 on 20 December 2012
ganoncrotch said:

your brain and eyes are not to be trusted when it comes to color... or much else, a lot of what you "see" is just your brain filling in the blanks of what it thinks it should be seeing

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Grey_square_optical_illusion.PNG in this picture the squares marked A+B are the exact same colour... there is no difference. Don't believe your eyes? or don't believe me, here is a gif of it :) no trickery, just your eyes thinking it is darker because it is in a shadow! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Optical_illusion_greysquares.gif

Colours and shades are not too far from each other, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/ColourIllusion2.jpg the second card as in the pink one he is holding in both these pictures is the exact same shade, most peoples eyes will have a hard time seeing them the same because the surroundings are so different that your eyes just guess the last colour.

Think about it like this, you're in a club or a cinema which has dark or really colourful lights around you, you know for a fact that everything in the room is being coloured by the lights around you.... you take the white ticket from your pocket which you got outside to take a look at it... you see it as white, in a room where there is no chance that the paper should appear white to you, but your brain knows it's white.

 

You are focussed on optical illusions and light. I'm taking a crayon out of a box. In normal incandescent light, it will appear the same to everyone who can perceive color. Do you agree?



cyberninja45 on 20 December 2012
dsgrue3 said:
ganoncrotch said:

your brain and eyes are not to be trusted when it comes to color... or much else, a lot of what you "see" is just your brain filling in the blanks of what it thinks it should be seeing

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Grey_square_optical_illusion.PNG in this picture the squares marked A+B are the exact same colour... there is no difference. Don't believe your eyes? or don't believe me, here is a gif of it :) no trickery, just your eyes thinking it is darker because it is in a shadow! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Optical_illusion_greysquares.gif

Colours and shades are not too far from each other, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/ColourIllusion2.jpg the second card as in the pink one he is holding in both these pictures is the exact same shade, most peoples eyes will have a hard time seeing them the same because the surroundings are so different that your eyes just guess the last colour.

Think about it like this, you're in a club or a cinema which has dark or really colourful lights around you, you know for a fact that everything in the room is being coloured by the lights around you.... you take the white ticket from your pocket which you got outside to take a look at it... you see it as white, in a room where there is no chance that the paper should appear white to you, but your brain knows it's white.

 

You are focussed on optical illusions and light. I'm taking a crayon out of a box. In normal incandescent light, it will appear the same to everyone who can perceive color. Do you agree?

It could appear the same or totally different to each individual that watches it. The way I perceive "red" does not have to be same way you perceive it.



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cyberninja45 on 20 December 2012
mysticwolf said:
It's very difficult to describe colors to someone who can't see them. And it's even harder for someone to try to imagine a color they can't see.

For example, if you lived in a 2D world, it would be impossible to imagine a third dimension.

Or for us to imagine what we would see if we could see ultraviolet light. Say there is this person that can see UV light. It would be very hard for him to describe it to us, and impossible for us to imagine what it would look like.

So if i read you right we are limited by our brain power in the perception of colors. So there can be new colors we just cannot imagine it.



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dsgrue3 on 20 December 2012
cyberninja45 said:
dsgrue3 said:
You are focussed on optical illusions and light. I'm taking a crayon out of a box. In normal incandescent light, it will appear the same to everyone who can perceive color. Do you agree?

 

It could appear the same or totally different to each individual that watches it. The way I perceive "red" does not have to be same way you perceive it.

"Each subject was asked to tune the color of a disk of light to produce a pure yellow light that was neither reddish yellow nor greenish yellow. Everyone selected nearly the same wavelength of yellow, showing an obvious consensus over what color they perceived yellow to be. Once Williams looked into their eyes, however, he was surprised to see that the number of long- and middle-wavelength cones—the cones that detect red, green, and yellow—were sometimes profusely scattered throughout the retina, and sometimes barely evident. The discrepancy was more than a 40:1 ratio, yet all the volunteers were apparently seeing the same color yellow."

http://www.rochester.edu/news/show.php?id=2299

False.



cyberninja45 on 20 December 2012
dsgrue3 said:
cyberninja45 said:
dsgrue3 said:
You are focussed on optical illusions and light. I'm taking a crayon out of a box. In normal incandescent light, it will appear the same to everyone who can perceive color. Do you agree?

 

It could appear the same or totally different to each individual that watches it. The way I perceive "red" does not have to be same way you perceive it.

"Each subject was asked to tune the color of a disk of light to produce a pure yellow light that was neither reddish yellow nor greenish yellow. Everyone selected nearly the same wavelength of yellow, showing an obvious consensus over what color they perceived yellow to be. Once Williams looked into their eyes, however, he was surprised to see that the number of long- and middle-wavelength cones—the cones that detect red, green, and yellow—were sometimes profusely scattered throughout the retina, and sometimes barely evident. The discrepancy was more than a 40:1 ratio, yet all the volunteers were apparently seeing the same color yellow."

http://www.rochester.edu/news/show.php?id=2299

False.

So you are saying you can help someone who cannot see colors perceive them then. So if we go by this experiment would we be able to one day see new colors? As in the hypothetical question I asked the1. Here it is

But lets for arguments sake use the electromagmetic spectrum and varying wavelenghts of light, this also means that there are many  different "colors" that we don't detect with our eyes (due to the size of their wavelenghts). If by some form of evolution in the future we were able to detect these light of different wavelenghts and frequencies with our eyes would our brain perceive them as "new colors"?



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dsgrue3 on 20 December 2012
cyberninja45 said:
dsgrue3 said:
cyberninja45 said:
dsgrue3 said:
You are focussed on optical illusions and light. I'm taking a crayon out of a box. In normal incandescent light, it will appear the same to everyone who can perceive color. Do you agree?

 

It could appear the same or totally different to each individual that watches it. The way I perceive "red" does not have to be same way you perceive it.

"Each subject was asked to tune the color of a disk of light to produce a pure yellow light that was neither reddish yellow nor greenish yellow. Everyone selected nearly the same wavelength of yellow, showing an obvious consensus over what color they perceived yellow to be. Once Williams looked into their eyes, however, he was surprised to see that the number of long- and middle-wavelength cones—the cones that detect red, green, and yellow—were sometimes profusely scattered throughout the retina, and sometimes barely evident. The discrepancy was more than a 40:1 ratio, yet all the volunteers were apparently seeing the same color yellow."

http://www.rochester.edu/news/show.php?id=2299

False.

So you are saying you can help someone who cannot see colors perceive them then. So if we go by this experiment would we be able to one day see new colors? As in the hypothetical question I asked the1. Here it is

But lets for arguments sake use the electromagmetic spectrum and varying wavelenghts of light, this also means that there are many  different "colors" that we don't detect with our eyes (due to the size of their wavelenghts). If by some form of evolution in the future we were able to detect these light of different wavelenghts and frequencies with our eyes would our brain perceive them as "new colors"?

Huh? I offered direct confirmation to the contrary of your post that colors can be perceived totally differently. That's entirely fallacious. And I do not care to comment on the above post as a result of your obtuseness to this fact.



cyberninja45 on 20 December 2012
dsgrue3 said:
cyberninja45 said:
dsgrue3 said:
cyberninja45 said:
dsgrue3 said:
You are focussed on optical illusions and light. I'm taking a crayon out of a box. In normal incandescent light, it will appear the same to everyone who can perceive color. Do you agree?

 

It could appear the same or totally different to each individual that watches it. The way I perceive "red" does not have to be same way you perceive it.

"Each subject was asked to tune the color of a disk of light to produce a pure yellow light that was neither reddish yellow nor greenish yellow. Everyone selected nearly the same wavelength of yellow, showing an obvious consensus over what color they perceived yellow to be. Once Williams looked into their eyes, however, he was surprised to see that the number of long- and middle-wavelength cones—the cones that detect red, green, and yellow—were sometimes profusely scattered throughout the retina, and sometimes barely evident. The discrepancy was more than a 40:1 ratio, yet all the volunteers were apparently seeing the same color yellow."

http://www.rochester.edu/news/show.php?id=2299

False.

So you are saying you can help someone who cannot see colors perceive them then. So if we go by this experiment would we be able to one day see new colors? As in the hypothetical question I asked the1. Here it is

But lets for arguments sake use the electromagmetic spectrum and varying wavelenghts of light, this also means that there are many  different "colors" that we don't detect with our eyes (due to the size of their wavelenghts). If by some form of evolution in the future we were able to detect these light of different wavelenghts and frequencies with our eyes would our brain perceive them as "new colors"?

Huh? I offered direct confirmation to the contrary of your post that colors can be perceived totally differently. That's entirely fallacious. And I do not care to comment on the above post as a result of your obtuseness to this fact.

Huh? I agreed with the experiment in your link "that color is perceived the same way", that is why I offered the question to you. So if you understand and agree with the experiment yourself  you should be able to answer it on your judgement and rationale.

Or is there not a link for that?



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