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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Next generation console development is seriously hurting the Wii U.

S.T.A.G.E. said:
DaRev said:
Once Japan comes online fullyband those developers start embracing the Wii U, Nintendo will have nothing to worry about. All those great Japanies games will be exclusive to Wii U beacuse of its bigger installed base.

Then once PS4 & 720 come out, their smaller installed base and high R&D costs will force developers to make games for Wii U as well.

I think Wii U will be OK.


LOL I cant wait to see your face when the next consoles launch. The Wii opened up casuals to gaming because it made gaming simple for casuals, the Wii U is a horse of a totally different color and I think casuals would rather buy an Ipad than a Wii U.

Maybe, but are you assuming that Ipad loving Casuals will then go and buy PS4 or 720 over Wii U? Yes Wii and WiiU are different, but that doesn't mean that PS4 or 720 will lure casual any more than Wii U can - In fact, I bet Wii U, because of Price and Gamepad, will lure more casuals that the other nextgen consoles. For I don't see any Ipad loving Casual thinking, I now want a dedicated gaming console, so let me go buy a more expensive PS4 or 720 with no, prima facie, new features, over the Wii U that clearly has a killer new feature in the Gamepad, which no doubt will appeal to the touch interface loving Ipad user. 

Ultimately, if you think Wii U got problems, I can't wait to see your facce when the next consoles launch.



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

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flagstaad said:
M.U.G.E.N said:
DaRev said:
Once Japan comes online fullyband those developers start embracing the Wii U, Nintendo will have nothing to worry about. All those great Japanies games will be exclusive to Wii U beacuse of its bigger installed base.

Then once PS4 & 720 come out, their smaller installed base and high R&D costs will force developers to make games for Wii U as well.

I think Wii U will be OK.


why would you think this if it didn't even happen with the wii?

IMHO, It did not happen last time because the PS2 crushed everyone world wide and everyone was expecting the PS3 to do it again, so every developer was getting ready to support the safer bet and that means developing assets and textures in HD, working with complex architecture and large amounts of data, when the Wii won the higher install base it was just too late to come back, some big companies did make some adjustments (DQ X, Monster Hunter 3, Tales of Graces, Tatsunoko vs Capcom, etc) and some small ones made the effort (Muramasa, No More Heroes, Little's King Story) but the tides were turned way before that.

My thoughts exactly.



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

I am worried for the Wii U :(, the developers will focus on the "Next Gen systems" unfortunately:
-they think they know this market better (the hardcores) so the games they will make will be sold for this systems instead of the Wii U, for some reason this guys can't figure out the Nintendo market, they are afraid of making a port of their games because they think it won't sell.
-the addition of a screen (just like the motion controllers) is something different they dont want to deal with (this is stupid, because they could support off tv and be done with it... but nope... they will probably won't even bother)
-they have to compete with Nintendos 1st party games
-the Next Gen systems probably will have a combined instal base superior to the Wii U (remember that they will treat the new Xbox and ps4 like they are one system, with a fan base they know how to sell games)



ECM said:
Squilliam said:

Put yourself in the position of a very good software engineer. You're making games because you're in it for the love and not so much the money as you could probably do uninteresting non gaming development and earn at least twice the salary with better hours. Publishers and managers only have so much sway on you because the chances of being unemployed for more than a couple of weeks between jobs is pretty slim. This is the challenge of managing a talented employee base which has mobile skills and a real willingness to walk if they don't get what they want.

You have two major options, either you maintain old code and port the Wii U or you can work on completely new architectures and take on new challenges so which one do you pick? Remembering that you're in it for the love and not the money so unless you have a specific love for Nintendo you're probably going to pick the latter. Now multiply this effect by X number of engineers spread over Y number of development houses and you have the answer as to why Z numbers multiplatform ports aren't coming Nintendo's way.

So there we have it, a repeat of the last generation where 3rd party developers pretty much only develop for the Nintendo console because they 'have to'  and any developer with a choice exercises it generally and develops for other systems. Nintendo was simply unwilling to do what the top level developers wanted and hence they don't get the support from the top level developers, had the Wii U been more powerful it would have been a lot more interesting to developers or had it come say in 2010 there wouldn't have been the option for these developers to simply move onto new systems.

TLDR: Top level developers would have no problem supporting the Wii U but they just don't want to and managers can't tell them what to do.

This entire post is confused, but especially the last line.

The only people that might fall into this category can be counted on, maybe, ten fingers (e.g. Ken Levine, the Houser Bros., etc.), as far as Western devs are concerned. Everyone else is going to do *exactly* what management tells them do to because THEY WORK FOR MANAGEMENT and management is PAYING THE BILLS. Software engineers do not get to pick what they work on. Period. I'm not even sure why you would suggest such a fanciful notion.

And lol at the notion of tens (let alone hundreds) of game devs walking from their jobs in this economy because they refuse to work on 'x' console! Have you been paying attention to the game dev job market lately? I have because I work in it, and let me tell ya, it ain't pretty. Right now everyone is moving onto "nextgen" dev (be it U, NextBox, PS4), but this also means that more money is being spent on fewer games, which means fewer jobs since they will always try to squeeze as much blood from a particular employee as possible. This, at least in part, explains why independent dev studios have been dropping like flies for the past 2-years--there simply isn't enough work to go around. (I can almost promise you this is exactly what happened at Eurocom--they got caught in the vise of wrapping up a current gen project and had nothing at all lined up after that because the work just isn't there.) And anyone that is at an independent game dev studio right now is probably just happy to have a job making console games--that's certainly been my experience when talking to the non-Levines of the gaming world, which outnumber the rockstars 1000-to-1 or more.)

(I hope everyone enjoyed the dev holocaust of the past 5-years, because by the end of the nextgen, you'll probably have five big pubs with internal teams, and a vanishingly small handful of dev studios that actually still make console titles, and a *ton* of contractors, be it here or in the Far East/India.)

(I'm actually one of those people that can 'choose' what they work on but not because I'm somebody--it's because I'm freelance/contract-based, so I work on what I want (unless I really need the money then, like eveyrone else, I take whatever is on the table), but that's hardly the same thing as working for EA and demaning they make "Software Engineer: The Reckoning" or you're going to leave--they will *laugh* at you.)

 A game developer simply can't have their top talent walking because they need skilled people who will write the 10% of code which takes 60% of the runtime of the console and they need this code to be well written. If you're the kind of person who can port Direct 3D to the PS3 or write shader model 5.0 code to run on the Cell processor your skills can be applied anywhere and you'll probably get a lot more money if you didn't work in the game industry. The only way to keep this kind of talent is to make sure they're happy and job satisfaction is a big part in this because they already have job offers lined up and unemployment is something which happens to other people.

Game developers are notoriously underpaid and overworked compared to other industries where they have portable skills. You can make a lot more money as a 3D animator in the movie business than the game business and you can make a lot more money writing specialised database programs for IBM mainframes than writing games for consoles and you can do this with a lot better hours and more job security. The only thing keeping a lot of people in the games industry is the passion for creating games and therefore you can't wholesale tell people who can find work elsewhere very easily to do something that they're not passionate about.

If you work at Valve you can literally not figuratively not work on a console you don't like.

http://www.valvesoftware.com/company/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf



Tease.

DaRev said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
DaRev said:
Once Japan comes online fullyband those developers start embracing the Wii U, Nintendo will have nothing to worry about. All those great Japanies games will be exclusive to Wii U beacuse of its bigger installed base.

Then once PS4 & 720 come out, their smaller installed base and high R&D costs will force developers to make games for Wii U as well.

I think Wii U will be OK.


LOL I cant wait to see your face when the next consoles launch. The Wii opened up casuals to gaming because it made gaming simple for casuals, the Wii U is a horse of a totally different color and I think casuals would rather buy an Ipad than a Wii U.

Maybe, but are you assuming that Ipad loving Casuals will then go and buy PS4 or 720 over Wii U? Yes Wii and WiiU are different, but that doesn't mean that PS4 or 720 will lure casual any more than Wii U can - In fact, I bet Wii U, because of Price and Gamepad, will lure more casuals that the other nextgen consoles. For I don't see any Ipad loving Casual thinking, I now want a dedicated gaming console, so let me go buy a more expensive PS4 or 720 with no, prima facie, new features, over the Wii U that clearly has a killer new feature in the Gamepad, which no doubt will appeal to the touch interface loving Ipad user. 

Ultimately, if you think Wii U got problems, I can't wait to see your facce when the next consoles launch.


I never said the Ipad loving casuals will go buy a PS4 or 720 over a Wii U. Nintendo wants to gather the casuals who are flocking to the Ipad and mobile phones for their games. They should've just left that to the DS. Microsoft and Sony have a stable base from the PS2 era that is around 150 million. Microsoft hasnt expanded the industry, so they are just sharing the marketshare Sony increased the gaming industry with. Thats their aim and goal. Whoever dominates that group have a strong piece of the pie. If Nintendo doesnt sell to the same crowd, they will sell 40-50 million consoles at the most.



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HappySqurriel said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:


True, however, a large percentage of developers depend on Epics engine and will use Unreal Engine 4 for next gen titles. If the Wii U gets those titles they will be dumbed down. The Wii U ports have been quite ok at best. When next gen comes they will need to work around the rules of the top western devs.


Maybe, but one of the biggest buzz-words in game engine development is "scalable" ...

While it may not be important for a Mass Effect type of game, more and more publishers want to be able to produce a single game that can be played on everything from a cell-phone to a high end console without (too much) additional work. I could be wrong but I suspect one of the main drivers behind this is that publishers want to keep releasing games on current generation consoles while releasing them on next generation systems without needing to have two seperate teams.

For the first few years I expect this to really help the Wii U, while in the following years it will depend on sales.


You're right that third parties want to increase the scale and flow of the games. Ubisoft, Epic, Crytek, and many others will be enjoying this if Sony and Microsoft give them what they want. I am also glad to hear that Sony is allowing their western branch to make the next playstation. Without going after the casuals the Wii's crowd is cut in half. Sony and Microsoft while sharing Sony's former marketshare will be serving a wider audience. It could end up 70-70 again next gen.



Honestly at this point I don't even care.

There's nothing special or all that unique about being able to play PS3/360 games on the Wii.

And by the time PS4/720 come out ... are you really going to buy the Wii U version of Assassin's Creed or CoD or whatever when the PS4/720 versions have nicer effects, 1080p resolution, etc.?

I actually wouldn't mind if devs bailed on Nintendo early this time around so Nintendo can get the message quickly that they need to focus on making more alliances with studios themselves, like the Platinum Games one.



S.T.A.G.E. said:
DaRev said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
DaRev said:
Once Japan comes online fullyband those developers start embracing the Wii U, Nintendo will have nothing to worry about. All those great Japanies games will be exclusive to Wii U beacuse of its bigger installed base.

Then once PS4 & 720 come out, their smaller installed base and high R&D costs will force developers to make games for Wii U as well.

I think Wii U will be OK.


LOL I cant wait to see your face when the next consoles launch. The Wii opened up casuals to gaming because it made gaming simple for casuals, the Wii U is a horse of a totally different color and I think casuals would rather buy an Ipad than a Wii U.

Maybe, but are you assuming that Ipad loving Casuals will then go and buy PS4 or 720 over Wii U? Yes Wii and WiiU are different, but that doesn't mean that PS4 or 720 will lure casual any more than Wii U can - In fact, I bet Wii U, because of Price and Gamepad, will lure more casuals that the other nextgen consoles. For I don't see any Ipad loving Casual thinking, I now want a dedicated gaming console, so let me go buy a more expensive PS4 or 720 with no, prima facie, new features, over the Wii U that clearly has a killer new feature in the Gamepad, which no doubt will appeal to the touch interface loving Ipad user. 

Ultimately, if you think Wii U got problems, I can't wait to see your facce when the next consoles launch.


I never said the Ipad loving casuals will go buy a PS4 or 720 over a Wii U. Nintendo wants to gather the casuals who are flocking to the Ipad and mobile phones for their games. They should've just left that to the DS. Microsoft and Sony have a stable base from the PS2 era that is around 150 million. Microsoft hasnt expanded the industry, so they are just sharing the marketshare Sony increased the gaming industry with. Thats their aim and goal. Whoever dominates that group have a strong piece of the pie. If Nintendo doesnt sell to the same crowd, they will sell 40-50 million consoles at the most.

At bold - you people make me laugh when you make these type of statments that assume that there is this other world of gamers ou there that play only Ipad games, and the Ipad has somehow reduced Nintendo to nothingness, lol. Seriously, have you see Nintendos DS and 3DS sales lately? Here is what amazese me about seemingly intelligent people like yourself that put forwrd this Ipad dominance argument - wait for it - the Ipad is a COMPUTER! People who buy the Ipad don't buy it to play games, they buy it because they want a tablet COMPUTER, not a table ganing handheld. Yes people downloaded a shit load of Angry Birds, but what else? I gaurantee that if you released a console game, e.g. Gears of War on the Ipad, it would not sell nearly as well as Angry Birds.

So saying that Nintendo needs to get the Ipad gamers is the most rediculous thing I've heard this generation - because there is no such thing as Ipad gamers! Yes there are people that own Ipads that have games on there, but are those people GAMERS, in the strictest sense of the word? I think not. That whole Ipad gamers thinking is a joke.

Sony and MS yes will get the hardcore gamers I agree, but what about the casuals? Can MS and Sony be casual and cheep enough to also lure casual gamers, which we already know is a huge market thanks to Nintendo? Move is a flop, and Kinect is a fad (so both pieces of junk have to now be packed in), so they will not lure any casuals. But most importanntly is the ethos of MS and Sony, which is not inherrently casual. Yes they tried to jump on the bandwaggon after, ohh shit Nintendo is right about casual gaming, but that doesn't mean that MS and Sony have the spirit or the drive and most importantly the games to lure casual - Sackboy and Kinectimals aint gonna cut it IMO. You need to be thinking NINTENDOLAND type of casual. You need to eat, sleep and breath casual gaming, and that is what Nintendo does well and what MS and Sony only play around with. It is Nintendo's strict adherence to this casual culture or way of thinking that will always keep them in the industry. Therefore, all Nintendo really has to do in the coming generation is lure SOME of Hardcore gamers like myself (which they have) and they will be just fine.

By the way, if Nintendo sells 40 - 50 million Wii Us I will be pleased But I think that's right as I think the numbers will be close for each of the 3 consoles this coming generation, like PS3 360 type of close.



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

S.T.A.G.E. said:
HappySqurriel said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:


True, however, a large percentage of developers depend on Epics engine and will use Unreal Engine 4 for next gen titles. If the Wii U gets those titles they will be dumbed down. The Wii U ports have been quite ok at best. When next gen comes they will need to work around the rules of the top western devs.


Maybe, but one of the biggest buzz-words in game engine development is "scalable" ...

While it may not be important for a Mass Effect type of game, more and more publishers want to be able to produce a single game that can be played on everything from a cell-phone to a high end console without (too much) additional work. I could be wrong but I suspect one of the main drivers behind this is that publishers want to keep releasing games on current generation consoles while releasing them on next generation systems without needing to have two seperate teams.

For the first few years I expect this to really help the Wii U, while in the following years it will depend on sales.


You're right that third parties want to increase the scale and flow of the games. Ubisoft, Epic, Crytek, and many others will be enjoying this if Sony and Microsoft give them what they want. I am also glad to hear that Sony is allowing their western branch to make the next playstation. Without going after the casuals the Wii's crowd is cut in half. Sony and Microsoft while sharing Sony's former marketshare will be serving a wider audience. It could end up 70-70 again next gen.

At bold - are you assuming that Nintendo with the Wii U, is not going after casuuals?  Also are you assuming that MS and Sony potentially have a casual focus than Nintendo because of the Wii U?



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

It will help Nintendo they are the frist to launch a next-generation console



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