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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - System Faults Didn't Stop THQ From Bringing Metro: Last Light To Wii U

Aielyn said:

Squilliam said:

Why would they want to pay for it? Why would they want to push it? They have limited resources.

Why talk about the Wii market? Well you talked about building a fanbase but if people already had access to the title on other consoles then it isn't exactly the same as a new I.P. on a new console because it is a sequel. If you've already rejected a game on the Xbox 360 or PS3 what makes the same game desirable on the Wii U?

I know what you mean - after all, Final Fantasy VII was a flop when Square Enix put it on a different platform from the one that its predecessors came from.

Meanwhile, as far as many gamers would be concerned, Metro: Last Light would be a new IP. This doesn't just include those who owned Wii, since the first game sold well under a million copies.

I also notice you completely ignored my question at the end. It wasn't rhetorical... at least, not in the sense that I didn't want an answer. I'm making a point, that people that own multiple consoles choose which console to play a game on based on something other than which platforms the game is available on. You falsely assume that, since they own a 360 and/or a PS3, they would have no interest in buying the game for the Wii U, or that they wouldn't be any more likely to buy it for the Wii U than for the 360 or PS3. In other words, you falsely assume that they wouldn't sell any more copies of the game if a Wii U version were released than they will with only 360 and PS3.

But even if it were true, the Wii U is a new console with new features, and establishing a market on the system now is a good idea.

Oh, and "limited resources"? Give me a break. They originally announced that the Wii U would get the game, a year and a half ago. If there were resources sufficient to cover a Wii U version then, there's no reason to assume that such resources just magically disappeared.

Final Fantasy was a very important series, Metro is not and will not be nearly as important.

If 50% of console A owners also own console B and console B and A have sold the same quantity of total consoles then if you're comparing the potential release of a game on console A only versus console A and B what is the difference in the total addressable market? If people can already buy your title anyway there is really no point in releasing it on a different platform. If the total new market for a game is too low then it doesn't warrant a port, end of story.

So tell me again why THQ would spend a couple of million dollars on porting a game for a series they don't hold rights to? Besides if you really want to make a stink about games not being ported you really should be focusing on Franchises which actually do have potential like for instance Bioshock or Metal Gear Solid which haven't go announced ports.



Tease.

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Mazty said:

So let me repeat myself:
If you are developing a game that will go on the 360 and PS3, which are significantly larger markets then the Wii U, whilst being sure that most Wii U owners will own either a PS3 or 360, why develop for the Wii U? More to the point, why develop for the Wii U this close to the end of a gaming generation when you could be focusing on the next gen? 

Well if they are focusing on next gen I am guessing Wii U will be getting many future unannouced games instead of these current gen games in development.



 

 

Cobretti2 said:
Mazty said:

So let me repeat myself:
If you are developing a game that will go on the 360 and PS3, which are significantly larger markets then the Wii U, whilst being sure that most Wii U owners will own either a PS3 or 360, why develop for the Wii U? More to the point, why develop for the Wii U this close to the end of a gaming generation when you could be focusing on the next gen? 

Well if they are focusing on next gen I am guessing Wii U will be getting many future unannouced games instead of these current gen games in development.

If we look at generations in terms of hardware, then the Wii U is not next-gen as it is not capable of producing much more then the existing consoles. 

As a developer if you are looking to significantly increase what your games can technically do, as in go fromt his gen to the next, you will be looking at the dev kits for the next xbox and playstation. 



Squilliam said:
Final Fantasy was a very important series, Metro is not and will not be nearly as important.

If 50% of console A owners also own console B and console B and A have sold the same quantity of total consoles then if you're comparing the potential release of a game on console A only versus console A and B what is the difference in the total addressable market? If people can already buy your title anyway there is really no point in releasing it on a different platform. If the total new market for a game is too low then it doesn't warrant a port, end of story.

So tell me again why THQ would spend a couple of million dollars on porting a game for a series they don't hold rights to? Besides if you really want to make a stink about games not being ported you really should be focusing on Franchises which actually do have potential like for instance Bioshock or Metal Gear Solid which haven't go announced ports.

The logic applies equally to all franchises. Bigger franchises are just a matter of scale, in this context.

Your console A vs console B comparison ignores three major points:
- that if there's more competition against your game on console A than console B, you have a better chance on console B, assuming equal quality,
- that serving games to new markets is often what makes the difference between a minor franchise and a major franchise, and
- that the cost of porting is far less than the cost of developing the original, as assets and basic code can be reused. If the cost of porting is 10% of the cost of developing, and lets you target 50% more audience, then you've got about 36% more chance of making a profit (or equivalently, an opportunity to make 36% more profit), even assuming that the additional 50% acts just like the initial market.

Anyway, I'll note again that I don't actually think Metro: Last Light is going to be a worthy investment, even on 360 and PS3. My comments are about the thought process that leads THQ to go "this game is worth our investment on 360 and PS3... but lets not bother with Wii U". And please don't try to tell me that they hold no sway over 4A Games, as their own wordings imply otherwise.



Mazty said:
Word of the day: "concise".

If you are just going to throw around ad hominems like "fanboy" or "anti-fanboy" then I can't be bothered with this debate. End of the day, you think you know better then developers and publishers who will have ran the figures (obviously) before coming to a conclusion. As I have said, why the hell bother developing for the Wii U when most owners will already have a PS3 or 360?

I'd rather be correct than concise, and a detailed argument is better than a flawed but short one.

I didn't once use "fanboy" or "anti-fanboy" as an ad hominem. Please do not use terms if you don't actually understand them. My use of those terms was not as part of an argument against anything you said. "Ad hominem" means to attack the person instead of their argument, or to argue against them by attacking the person. My comments about fanboyism served the purpose of emphasising that your argument is the same one trotted out by many other people who have exactly the same mindset as you do, and that perhaps there would be value in trying to look at things from other perspectives.

I gave a detailed explanation of why you should develop for the Wii U. You ignored it. I gave a more detailed explanation, with examples of games demonstrating why developing core games for a console can pay off in the long term, even on consoles that are seen as "inferior" or "for teh casualz". You ignored it.

Consider this. The Wii was seen as not much more powerful than the PS2. The PS2 was still being sold. By your reasoning, a console with well over 100 million units sold is the competition for a new console... why bother supporting it? Well, it turned out that that new console was a megahit, and that large sales were seen for third parties when they actually put in serious effort. Resident Evil 4 sold well over 2 million copies on the Wii, despite being a port of a two and a half year old title that had already sold on both the immediate predecessor of the Wii and on the biggest-selling console of the previous generation, which was meant to be in competition with the Wii according to people like you.

By your reasoning, who did it sell Resident Evil 4 to? I mean, any core gamer who owned a Wii had to own a PS2 or a Gamecube already, right? So what was the value in releasing the game for the Wii? And yet, Resident Evil 4 laid the groundwork that allowed Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles to sell exceptionally well. And that game then also allowed games like House of the Dead to flourish. It laid the groundwork for Silent Hill: Shattered Memories. One could even argue that it laid the groundwork for MadWorld, a title that just about every anti-fanboy that hated Nintendo said wouldn't sell on the Wii, yet managed a rather noteworthy 700,000 copies.

Until you can reasonably explain why situations like that are different from the Wii U, your argument remains nothing but a fanboy argument.



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Aielyn said:
Squilliam said:
Final Fantasy was a very important series, Metro is not and will not be nearly as important.

If 50% of console A owners also own console B and console B and A have sold the same quantity of total consoles then if you're comparing the potential release of a game on console A only versus console A and B what is the difference in the total addressable market? If people can already buy your title anyway there is really no point in releasing it on a different platform. If the total new market for a game is too low then it doesn't warrant a port, end of story.

So tell me again why THQ would spend a couple of million dollars on porting a game for a series they don't hold rights to? Besides if you really want to make a stink about games not being ported you really should be focusing on Franchises which actually do have potential like for instance Bioshock or Metal Gear Solid which haven't go announced ports.

The logic applies equally to all franchises. Bigger franchises are just a matter of scale, in this context.

Your console A vs console B comparison ignores three major points:
- that if there's more competition against your game on console A than console B, you have a better chance on console B, assuming equal quality,
- that serving games to new markets is often what makes the difference between a minor franchise and a major franchise, and
- that the cost of porting is far less than the cost of developing the original, as assets and basic code can be reused. If the cost of porting is 10% of the cost of developing, and lets you target 50% more audience, then you've got about 36% more chance of making a profit (or equivalently, an opportunity to make 36% more profit), even assuming that the additional 50% acts just like the initial market.

Anyway, I'll note again that I don't actually think Metro: Last Light is going to be a worthy investment, even on 360 and PS3. My comments are about the thought process that leads THQ to go "this game is worth our investment on 360 and PS3... but lets not bother with Wii U". And please don't try to tell me that they hold no sway over 4A Games, as their own wordings imply otherwise.


The Wii U isn't even close to a tenth of the addressable audience of even the PS3 and the devs already said due to how the game uses the CPU the Wii U version would show the game in an unfavorable light.

Metro 2033 sold twice as much on PC as 360, adding the PS3 may add upto (most likely less) an extra 25% more addressable market (gamers interested in this type of game that own a PS3 and not a PC or X360) the 360 version will be the best selling console version by far so 15% is probably more acurate. But the Wii U currently has an almost nonexistant market share, so the gain in addressable market would be negligable to nonexistant. I can't see how diverting the resources from the Wii U port into making the 3 versions with the largest market share better, is a bad business decision for a company that might not exist to see any potential rewards from establishing a market on an unproven platform.



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Mazty said:
Cobretti2 said:
Mazty said:

So let me repeat myself:
If you are developing a game that will go on the 360 and PS3, which are significantly larger markets then the Wii U, whilst being sure that most Wii U owners will own either a PS3 or 360, why develop for the Wii U? More to the point, why develop for the Wii U this close to the end of a gaming generation when you could be focusing on the next gen? 

Well if they are focusing on next gen I am guessing Wii U will be getting many future unannouced games instead of these current gen games in development.

If we look at generations in terms of hardware, then the Wii U is not next-gen as it is not capable of producing much more then the existing consoles. 

As a developer if you are looking to significantly increase what your games can technically do, as in go fromt his gen to the next, you will be looking at the dev kits for the next xbox and playstation. 

what gives you the idea that the next gen xbox and playstation will have a power gap large enough to make the wii u irrelevent? 

we have not had any confirmation of next gen xbox or playstation hardware at all. if you are looking at ports and launch titles of the wii u to determine its full capability then you should take a look at the launch games on 360 and ps3.

i do agree that there is not much use to putting a lot of resources into porting current gen games to wii u. on the other hand i believe some resources should be put into new titles, be they spinoff, new ip, or sequel, onto the wii u to establish a fanbase.

hardware power wont be as noticable next gen as we are reaching the end of whats feasible to develop do to budget or developer talent.



zarx said:
The Wii U isn't even close to a tenth of the addressable audience of even the PS3 and the devs already said due to how the game uses the CPU the Wii U version would show the game in an unfavorable light.

Metro 2033 sold twice as much on PC as 360, adding the PS3 may add upto (most likely less) an extra 25% more addressable market (gamers interested in this type of game that own a PS3 and not a PC or X360) the 360 version will be the best selling console version by far so 15% is probably more acurate. But the Wii U currently has an almost nonexistant market share, so the gain in addressable market would be negligable to nonexistant. I can't see how diverting the resources from the Wii U port into making the 3 versions with the largest market share better, is a bad business decision for a company that might not exist to see any potential rewards from establishing a market on an unproven platform.

The dev has since said that that wasn't true, that Metro wasn't ever actually tested on the Wii U, so they couldn't tell you whether the CPU could handle it.

The Wii U has practically nonexistant market share *now*. It launched three weeks ago, of course it doesn't. Guess what - every platform has been in exactly the same position. Did developers refuse to develop for the 360 because it had only sold a couple of million, after a few months? No, they put their games on the system. And taking risks is also known as doing business. THQ are in a hole that is deep enough that continuing to do what they've always done, and playing things safe, is pretty much a guaranteed death sentence.



Mr Khan said:
oniyide said:
LMAO @ No More Heroes comparison. THe fact that someone is still using that fail argument tells me some people still dont know what the hell they are talking about. That game was released on HD consoles 3 YEARS after the Wii release in JAPAN ONLY. and didnt make it stateside till the next year. Oh wow, a 4 year late game didnt sell better than the original release LOL.

Plus the game wasnt that good to begin with, why in the hell would someone who has an HD console play taht game in lieu of God of War, Bayonetta, DMC, hell Castlevania all in the same genre and all are vastly better than NMHs. For a real comparison how about we use games that came out the SAME time on all consoles, bet money that would make the Wii not look that great in that regard. Hell every COD game alone. Yes even 3 since the 360 version still ended up outselling it. Was it cause the wii version sucked or because the audience for that type of game is more 360 prone, i say both.

Skipping Modern Warfare killed them.

So really, it's Infinity Ward's fault. Part of the reason i was glad to see them get taken to the cleaners by Activision.

I guessed you missed the part where I stated that the 360 version of COD3 still outsold the Wii one. Im not saying MW not being on it didnt hurt, but im sure that the result would have been the same anyway. the only difference is the WIi version would have sold more but still would have been far behind the PS360/PC versions



Aielyn said:
zarx said:
The Wii U isn't even close to a tenth of the addressable audience of even the PS3 and the devs already said due to how the game uses the CPU the Wii U version would show the game in an unfavorable light.

Metro 2033 sold twice as much on PC as 360, adding the PS3 may add upto (most likely less) an extra 25% more addressable market (gamers interested in this type of game that own a PS3 and not a PC or X360) the 360 version will be the best selling console version by far so 15% is probably more acurate. But the Wii U currently has an almost nonexistant market share, so the gain in addressable market would be negligable to nonexistant. I can't see how diverting the resources from the Wii U port into making the 3 versions with the largest market share better, is a bad business decision for a company that might not exist to see any potential rewards from establishing a market on an unproven platform.

The dev has since said that that wasn't true, that Metro wasn't ever actually tested on the Wii U, so they couldn't tell you whether the CPU could handle it.

The Wii U has practically nonexistant market share *now*. It launched three weeks ago, of course it doesn't. Guess what - every platform has been in exactly the same position. Did developers refuse to develop for the 360 because it had only sold a couple of million, after a few months? No, they put their games on the system. And taking risks is also known as doing business. THQ are in a hole that is deep enough that continuing to do what they've always done, and playing things safe, is pretty much a guaranteed death sentence.

I am glad if I wait long enough you write what I wanted to write haha. Saves me the effort. In particular the bold underlined part. Developers in general need to realise that part of selling hardware is their software. Without the software the hardware doesnt sell and support for sequels doesn't grow as their is no audience for it. They too are responsible for growing the gaming audience. 

 

On  a sidenote about the 3DS, what I find funny is that some audiences say Nintendo needs to sell their hardware in order to entice western 3rd parties to spport 3DS better, however Vita doesn't sell because it hasn't got enough good 3rd party games to justify a purchase.  Shouldn't it be up to Sony to sell the Vita liek it is upto Nintendo to sell the 3DS?