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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - System Faults Didn't Stop THQ From Bringing Metro: Last Light To Wii U

Aielyn said:

Mazty said:

So you are saying Cursed Mountain was  a bad game?

Have you actually taken the time to look at games sales on the Wii? Other then Nintendo and bundled titles, sales are incredibly low even when you don't consider the market share the Wii has. If you do, then you should notice that other then one or two games, the Wii has had the worst game sales this generation.

You really don't understand the wii....The Wii was seen as a gimmick by a lot of gamers, but seen as the "in thing" by a lot of non-gamers. If you want to play a lot of the popular franchises this generation, you couldn't play it on the wii, hence the reason that there is no point in putting those franchises on the Wii U as the people who want to play them will already own either a 360 or PS3.

The wii u launch may be adequate but nevertheless, it's no way near reaching the market that is the PS3 or 360.  

You are the one who isn't rationally thinking about this but rather just raging at devs "not thinking". And I'm not a "fanboy" - i'm a PC gamer so I'm actually the unbiased one here. But y'know, blame everyone before looking in the mirror. 

So let me repeat myself:
If you are developing a game that will go on the 360 and PS3, which are significantly larger markets then the Wii U, whilst being sure that most Wii U owners will own either a PS3 or 360, why develop for the Wii U? More to the point, why develop for the Wii U this close to the end of a gaming generation when you could be focusing on the next gen? 

Also look at it this way. Are you saying that almost every big publisher and devloper out there all have it wrong and that you, someone who doesn't work in the industry, has got it magically right? Did you make the tinfoil hat yourself or buy it from a Doomsday prepper?

FYI: http://www.edge-online.com/news/deep-silver-vienna-closed/

I didn't say Cursed Mountain was a bad game, I said it was a forgettable game. Meaning, it didn't really make much of a splash, in the end. There was little by way of PR or advertising, it didn't have any sort of developer or brand recognition, and its review scores averaged below 70% on GameRankings. There was nothing solid to generate buzz or sales from, so it doesn't surprise me that it didn't sell all that well.

And regarding the "closure", need I point out that it closed within only a few months of Cursed Mountain's release. Not to mention that, as I said above, Cursed Mountain lacked any sort of effort to sell the game (not saying the game was bad, although it didn't have strong reviews). And the two guys that founded Deep Silver Vienna as Games That Matter both left a couple of months before it was closed. Oh, and Deep Silver Vienna is not "Deep Silver", it's a single studio. Single studios get closed all the time. They took three years to make one game, and that game ended up being a weak, new IP that got no real publicity. What did you expect, exactly?

Meanwhile, I do like how you're using all of the "right" words - "non-gamers", "gimmick", etc. I don't know why you think that being a PC gamer means you're not a fanboy. By the way, "fanboy" is a term I use to also refer to what I sometimes call "anti-fanboys". What's an anti-fanboy? A person who has as much of a hatred towards a specific company as a fanboy has love for a specific company.

The fact of the matter is, the Wii U is a console that will sell itself on its merits. If it has interesting, high quality games that you can't get anywhere else, people will buy it. Just as happened with the Wii. Just as happened with the PS3 and the 360. The games sell the system. And a smart third-party company establishes their market on each platform, so that they can maximise the total size of their market. They don't try to segment their market so that each platform gets games of a certain type, because that results in stagnation.

For the record, I really couldn't care less about Metro: Last Light. I wouldn't have bought it, anyway. And based on sales of the first title, I doubt that it'll do all that well, selling on systems that have a glut of games very similar to it, all of which it has to compete against.

One of the big flaws in the thinking of most third parties is the "someone else established a market for X on the system, I should try to sell to the same people". This is red ocean marketing. Looking for where there's already blood in the water, so to speak. The thing is, it's a highly inefficient method, as almost always, the company that hits it big will be the one that people continue to patronise, and the copycats end up with scraps at best. On the other hand, when one puts in a strong effort to bring a high quality title to a platform that doesn't have a game like it, it often overperforms. See Goldeneye 007 Wii.

You suggest that I'm saying that all of the developers have it wrong and that I have it right. Not at all. I think that developers know what I'm talking about, but are just as swayed by what they'd like to do as anybody else. They'd rather work on the most powerful hardware than on the hardware that the player would most prefer. They are fallible.

But when you look at the ones that have made the right choice, you see the dramatic difference. Note that this "right choice" doesn't have to mean "supporting Nintendo's hardware" - it means making choices that go against the industry's current path, it means identifying sections of the market that are underserved, and serving them. It means intentionally avoiding trying to copy the current mega-franchise, and instead breaking out into a completely new direction. Every break-out hit came from nowhere. That's how it works.

In the meantime, let's look at publisher support for the Wii, shall we? Ubisoft supported the Wii strongly out of the gate. They have 15 million-sellers on the system and total sales of over 75 million from 127 games. Square Enix barely gave any support to the system, including one instance where they ported a DS game over to the system, didn't update the graphics, and implied that it was a feature. They had no million-sellers, and less than 4 million sold over more than 14 games - which includes a few games where they were just a distributor in Japan. Capcom was all over the place, sometimes giving strong support, sometimes dropping the ball. They saw their best ever console Monster Hunter sales, beating the original PS2 game by more than 4x, with their best-ever western sales of the franchise. Yet they couldn't release a new Street Fighter title for the system.

When developers make strong titles that don't try to compete, and they back them up, they get results. Resident Evil 4 was the Wii's first strong horror title. It saw strong sales, for a port of a game released in the previous generation on both Gamecube and PS2. They then did something different in Umbrella Chronicles, and saw huge sales there, too. Ignoring the potential for more survival horror like RE4, they made another lightgun RE Chronicles game, which then had to compete with a glut of other lightgun games, including House of the Dead and Dead Space in the horror category. When Konami came in with Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, the regular survival horror genre had gone untapped, and the result was stronger sales than the PS3/360 Silent Hill title released at a similar time.

No More Heroes was released on the Wii. It didn't sell exceptionally well, but it was one of Suda 51's best-selling games of all time, anyway. It was then ported to the PS3 and 360, with some upgrades (especially to graphics)... and it sold far worse. The sequel on Wii sold better than the originals on PS3 and 360. Why? Because No More Heroes was something different on Wii. It was just like everything else on the PS3 and 360, in that it had to compete against much stronger titles that appealed to similar people.

And like I said, it's not all "better on Wii". Sega Superstar Tennis was released on PS3, 360, and Wii. Despite most of Sega's games selling better on Wii when cross-platform, this game did best on 360. Why? Probably because the Wii had numerous tennis games, including a pack-in, while the only competition it really had on the 360 was Top Spin 3, released around the same time. So why didn't the PS3 get the sales? Probably because it had Virtua Tennis as a launch title in Europe, and thus not long after launch in the US. So Sega was competing with themselves on the PS3, but not on the 360. Note that this issue wouldn't have arisen if it had been released a year later, and thus the PS3 version likely would have sold better, especially factoring in Move.

There are so many other examples. Sonic Unleashed, for instance. Guitar Hero III. The LEGO titles. Epic Mickey. Call of Duty 3 (compared with later CoD titles, after Activision ignored the Wii). Tiger Woods 08-10. The list goes on.

The facts, to put it bluntly, are on my side. Your side consists primarily of "but the Wii U isn't a lot more powerful than the PS3 or 360, so why support it?"... which is probably how a lot of developers think. But consumers don't care about power, they care about gameplay.

Word of the day: "concise".

If you are just going to throw around ad hominems like "fanboy" or "anti-fanboy" then I can't be bothered with this debate. End of the day, you think you know better then developers and publishers who will have ran the figures (obviously) before coming to a conclusion. As I have said, why the hell bother developing for the Wii U when most owners will already have a PS3 or 360?

Don't bother making arbitrary comparisons between one Silent Hill game and another. Ultimately both sold like shit. You are also making the completely incorrect comparison between the wii market and the Wii U market. When the Wii came out, they were all young consoles. The Wii U now is DIRECTLY competing against two consoles which have over 70 million users EACH.

So, why the hell would a dev make a game for a console that has ~1 million users when:
a) Most of those users will probably have a 360 or PS3
b) The console will be left behind in a year or two when the next gen is released?
You argument thus far has been completely flawed as you ignore both those points and are trying to use the Wii as a comparison, which was not in the same stage of the gaming gen as the Wii U is. 
The "facts" are not on your side because you are making rediculous comparisons. It's like saying Jupiter will be hot because the sun is big and Jupiter is big. You're not looking at any of the detail whatsoever. 



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Aielyn said:

I know what you mean - after all, Final Fantasy VII was a flop when Square Enix put it on a different platform from the one that its predecessors came from.

Meanwhile, as far as many gamers would be concerned, Metro: Last Light would be a new IP. This doesn't just include those who owned Wii, since the first game sold well under a million copies.

I also notice you completely ignored my question at the end. It wasn't rhetorical... at least, not in the sense that I didn't want an answer. I'm making a point, that people that own multiple consoles choose which console to play a game on based on something other than which platforms the game is available on. You falsely assume that, since they own a 360 and/or a PS3, they would have no interest in buying the game for the Wii U, or that they wouldn't be any more likely to buy it for the Wii U than for the 360 or PS3. In other words, you falsely assume that they wouldn't sell any more copies of the game if a Wii U version were released than they will with only 360 and PS3.

But even if it were true, the Wii U is a new console with new features, and establishing a market on the system now is a good idea.

Oh, and "limited resources"? Give me a break. They originally announced that the Wii U would get the game, a year and a half ago. If there were resources sufficient to cover a Wii U version then, there's no reason to assume that such resources just magically disappeared.


Did you honestly compare a direct sequel to a niche story/atmospheric FPS game (which has sold over 1.5 million by the way) to FF7? 

The situation of those 2 games are nothing alike. FF was the biggest RPG franchise around at the time so had massive brand power going into the transition, it was an exclusive to an entirely new platform from a new company that already had a large instal base, was moving the franchise in a new direction in terms of tone and presentation, was an origonal story, and most importantly had the biggest advertising campaign of any game at the time. Sony pumped millions into making FF7 a success, as they saw it as a key tool in establishing the Playstation brand. M: LL would be none of those things on the Wii U, and Nintendo sure as hell wouldn't be co-publishing the game.

And have you been living under a rock? How can you be unaware of THQs financial situation at this point? The company is on the verge of bankruptcy, and have killed off 5 entire  studios in the last year and a half, dropping a likely unprofitable drain on resources which could be spent making the base game better isn't a stretch. They can't really afford to throw away money to try and establish a new market on an unproven platform, when they may not even exist long enough to launch the game in the first place.



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LMAO @ No More Heroes comparison. THe fact that someone is still using that fail argument tells me some people still dont know what the hell they are talking about. That game was released on HD consoles 3 YEARS after the Wii release in JAPAN ONLY. and didnt make it stateside till the next year. Oh wow, a 4 year late game didnt sell better than the original release LOL.

Plus the game wasnt that good to begin with, why in the hell would someone who has an HD console play taht game in lieu of God of War, Bayonetta, DMC, hell Castlevania all in the same genre and all are vastly better than NMHs. For a real comparison how about we use games that came out the SAME time on all consoles, bet money that would make the Wii not look that great in that regard. Hell every COD game alone. Yes even 3 since the 360 version still ended up outselling it. Was it cause the wii version sucked or because the audience for that type of game is more 360 prone, i say both.



oniyide said:
LMAO @ No More Heroes comparison. THe fact that someone is still using that fail argument tells me some people still dont know what the hell they are talking about. That game was released on HD consoles 3 YEARS after the Wii release in JAPAN ONLY. and didnt make it stateside till the next year. Oh wow, a 4 year late game didnt sell better than the original release LOL.

Plus the game wasnt that good to begin with, why in the hell would someone who has an HD console play taht game in lieu of God of War, Bayonetta, DMC, hell Castlevania all in the same genre and all are vastly better than NMHs. For a real comparison how about we use games that came out the SAME time on all consoles, bet money that would make the Wii not look that great in that regard. Hell every COD game alone. Yes even 3 since the 360 version still ended up outselling it. Was it cause the wii version sucked or because the audience for that type of game is more 360 prone, i say both.

Skipping Modern Warfare killed them.

So really, it's Infinity Ward's fault. Part of the reason i was glad to see them get taken to the cleaners by Activision.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mazty said:

So you are saying Cursed Mountain was  a bad game? 

Cursed Mountain was a bad game.  Great concept, terrible execution.  There were two really good levels in the second half of the game, but the first half was a boring and slooooooow.



Switch Code: SW-7377-9189-3397 -- Nintendo Network ID: theRepublic -- Steam ID: theRepublic

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theRepublic said:
Mazty said:

So you are saying Cursed Mountain was  a bad game? 

Cursed Mountain was a bad game.  Great concept, terrible execution.  There were two really good levels in the second half of the game, but the first half was a boring and slooooooow.


See the issue there though? There are many terrible games for the other two consoles that sell pretty well (Hi CoD). A bad core game for the Wii seems to spell death, and that's with there being 10's of millions of consoles. Go figure how off putting that is for devs if there are only ~ 1 million Wii U consoles out there....



Mr Khan said:
oniyide said:
LMAO @ No More Heroes comparison. THe fact that someone is still using that fail argument tells me some people still dont know what the hell they are talking about. That game was released on HD consoles 3 YEARS after the Wii release in JAPAN ONLY. and didnt make it stateside till the next year. Oh wow, a 4 year late game didnt sell better than the original release LOL.

Plus the game wasnt that good to begin with, why in the hell would someone who has an HD console play taht game in lieu of God of War, Bayonetta, DMC, hell Castlevania all in the same genre and all are vastly better than NMHs. For a real comparison how about we use games that came out the SAME time on all consoles, bet money that would make the Wii not look that great in that regard. Hell every COD game alone. Yes even 3 since the 360 version still ended up outselling it. Was it cause the wii version sucked or because the audience for that type of game is more 360 prone, i say both.

Skipping Modern Warfare killed them.

So really, it's Infinity Ward's fault. Part of the reason i was glad to see them get taken to the cleaners by Activision.

CoD3

360 - 2.61 million

Wii - 2.17 million

PS3 - 1.37 million

Then the breakout hit skips the Wii, and all the fans go elsewhere.  As Aielyn has been saying, you need to create a market for your games, and then you need to serve that market.



Switch Code: SW-7377-9189-3397 -- Nintendo Network ID: theRepublic -- Steam ID: theRepublic

Now Playing
Switch - Super Mario Maker 2 (2019)
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Wii U - Darksiders: Warmastered Edition (2010/2017)
Mobile - The Simpson's Tapped Out and Yugioh Duel Links
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wfz said:

The damage is already done. Sony and Microsoft fanboys won't care about this news; their minds are already made up.

Glad to see THQ clarifying. =)

I don't care what games it cant' handle. I know that Nintendo makes the best same room games of any developer and their new hardware is an evolution for the same room gaming experiences I enjoy most.

The rest of what it can or can't do doesn't really matter.



Mazty said:
theRepublic said:
Mazty said:

So you are saying Cursed Mountain was  a bad game? 

Cursed Mountain was a bad game.  Great concept, terrible execution.  There were two really good levels in the second half of the game, but the first half was a boring and slooooooow.


See the issue there though? There are many terrible games for the other two consoles that sell pretty well (Hi CoD). A bad core game for the Wii seems to spell death, and that's with there being 10's of millions of consoles. Go figure how off putting that is for devs if there are only ~ 1 million Wii U consoles out there....

It is pretty clear you never played the game.  Comparing Cursed Mountain to CoD is like comparing Mike Tyson's boxing ability to that of a house cat.  It just does not make sense.  Bad games don't sell on the 360 or PS3 either.

If your personal scale has CoD as a terrible game, then Cursed Mountain would need to be the worst game ever made to keep things relative.



Switch Code: SW-7377-9189-3397 -- Nintendo Network ID: theRepublic -- Steam ID: theRepublic

Now Playing
Switch - Super Mario Maker 2 (2019)
Switch - The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening (2019)
Switch - Bastion (2011/2018)
3DS - Star Fox 64 3D (2011)
3DS - Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney (Trilogy) (2005/2014)
Wii U - Darksiders: Warmastered Edition (2010/2017)
Mobile - The Simpson's Tapped Out and Yugioh Duel Links
PC - Deep Rock Galactic (2020)

theRepublic said:
Mazty said:
theRepublic said:
Mazty said:

So you are saying Cursed Mountain was  a bad game? 

Cursed Mountain was a bad game.  Great concept, terrible execution.  There were two really good levels in the second half of the game, but the first half was a boring and slooooooow.


See the issue there though? There are many terrible games for the other two consoles that sell pretty well (Hi CoD). A bad core game for the Wii seems to spell death, and that's with there being 10's of millions of consoles. Go figure how off putting that is for devs if there are only ~ 1 million Wii U consoles out there....

It is pretty clear you never played the game.  Comparing Cursed Mountain to CoD is like comparing Mike Tyson's boxing ability to that of a house cat.  It just does not make sense.  Bad games don't sell on the 360 or PS3 either.

If your personal scale has CoD as a terrible game, then Cursed Mountain would need to be the worst game ever made to keep things relative.

Cliche story, terrible voice acting, god awful multiplayer (cat & mouse levels) etc. I digress, but after having played pretty much most FPS' since Wolfenstein, Call of Duty 6 onwards have been terrible games, but nevertheless popular. Like Michael Bay. Either way I think that's a different topic.