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Forums - Politics - What can be done with Isreal? Realistically!

oldschoolfool said:
Are they still fighting over that piece of land. lol


It's a very sacred and holy piece of land (probably the most important one in the planet) on which the holiest prophets and the Son of God himself left their messages to be remember, protected and honoured. It's very understandable why so many people are willing to die for that land, it's very sacred to them.



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mai_alt said:

To the point, nothing. The relationship between the master and a dog (which is which is depends on your political views) are getting colder already. They know they're skrewed (hence all these reverences towards Asad). Not a big deal though, they spent their 40 years in a desert, will spend some more and move to other places, like the US (as if 5-6 million Jews in there is not enough, probably more than in Israel! what I'm afraid of is they might come back here), which speaks a lot about the so called Jewish nation. Well, ther're Israeli though (there was even running slogan "kill galut Jew in you, become an Israeli!"), which was modest attempt to build a nation out of Jews but ultimately failed. The more events will follow Arab Spring scenario the more Jews will escape Israel sooner or later, because in the end they do not care about Israel, who will left to protect their homeland? Well, Israeli, patriots of the motherland, kudos to them. There MUST be some Israeli in Israel, right?

Ok, let's make this post more substantial. Why Israel is f@#$ed? Here's short history of the this region (Near East and the Mahgrib) geopolitics:

1) Prior to the inevitable end of the Ottoman Empire, I beleive somewhere in the mid-end of XIX century the Brits have created a large intelligence network in the Arab regions of the empire, and strike a deal with those who eventually will rule Six Monarchies of the Gulf (you must know this overly heroic Lawrence of Arabia story, who used to be an agent of influence of British Empire and one of the hidden behind the scene leaderof Arab Revolt in 1916-1918 during first World War). Typical British jackal policy, they know their drill ;)

2) One way or antoher but Ottoman Empire has come to it's end. A lot of territories, inhabited by Arabs, were gained independence... sort of. They were ruled by European colonial empires according to the mandats issued by League fo Nations. E.g. Syria fall under French mandat at the time, they put their man there, Faisal I, who - as you might expect - was one of the key figures of mentioned Arab Revolt. At the time you could see this kind of the situation was quite widespread, when former Ottoman Empire territories fall under mandat of certain Europen power and ruled by people from the Six Monarchies, descendants of the ruling dynsasties of said monarchies or affilated with them one way or another.

3) After WW2 and Suez Crisis of 1956 when colonial system has started to crumble, superpowers were working together to destroy said European powers influence in the region. Since now and then you can see a lot of purely religious, sometimes fanatically religious monarchies of the region, were replaced with very much secular, republican and far from being religious regimes. While Americans have inherited said British network, overall consensus and allied status with Gulf Monarchies from the Brits, Soviet ideology, popular at the time, served as a ram of new regimes to crush the old ones, like socialist Ba'ath Party ruling in Iraq and Syria, or some weird combinations of traditional Islam and new Socialism, like Libyan Arab Jamahiriya.

4) After dissolution of the Soviet Union, all of these Arab republics more or less reoriented towards the US. Nothing really special, since even during the Cold War most of them were kissing arses of two masters at the time, regardless of the Socialistic or whatever title in the name of the country (the prime example being Gamal Abdel Nasser).

5) Let's get closer to present time. What is Arab Spring? Here's an example of Lybia. When Americans want to destroy your country, they usually do it under perfectly valid reasoning, like they did it with Yugolsavia. Hence they need sort of "Albanian ram", which role was brillinatly pefformed by Lybian senussits (about one third of Lybians, who live in Benghazi or near it), who fell under influence of salafits (aka wahhabists) in the XIX century. Mind I remind you that Gadaffi before coming to power overthrown Idris I (his trirbe is ethnic Benghazi, not a coincidence), the grandchild of the founder of the Sufia Order of senussits -- Sayyid Muhammad ibn Ali as-Senussi. This explains why Qatar, Saudis and UAE were so eager to participate in destroying Lybia along with decrepit old European powers. Those senussits as well as wahhabists were part of said network created by British Colonial Office, often used as a cover for this kind of operations.

6) It must be noted that during American rule of the region, allied Gulf Monarchies served as informational brain-washing (Al Jazeera) and financial machine to support let's call it "Islamintern" (Islamic International), aka pan-Islamic movement, the Great Caliphate or whatever, including various terroristic groups, excluding those who were controlled by Syria and Iran. This was their carte blanche provided and even used by the US in it's own interests, usually to present a great enemy -- terrorism. And nobody seem to care about the facts that Al-Qaeda fighters were released from jails and fought against Gaddafi after Tripoli assault or how Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (now it's called AQIM, Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb) joined the fight in Lybia. Why? Becaues during the Arab Srping, which seem to specifically dodge Gulf Monarchies regimes, they need to get rid of as much secular regimes as possible, and who can do the best than their sworn enemy, Islamic terrorism? The only secular still not overtrown regimes left in the region are Algeria (they contributed a LOT to fight against AQIM) and Syria (currently under attack).

7) Why is that? I believe, Arab Spring signify a great change in the US foreign policy from War of Order during Bush administration (meaning American order obviously) to War of Chaos during Obama administration (meaning controllable chaos, aka Arab Spring), and eventually a way to isolationism and maybe, if they f@#$ it up again, uncontrollable chaos unless someone else will take care of it, which is pretty typical for them. Given current economic crisis, if you cannot recover yourself - make everyone'e else situation worse.

And with all that being said, what this have to do with Israel? Simple, given current globally changed picture of the region, nobody needs Israel. Regardless how hard eponymus Israel lobby will try, the US doesn't need Israel anymore to bully Arabs. The absurdity of the situation come to the point when Israel helps Asad to survive Arab Spring, because known enemy is one thing, unknown -- is totally different. I'm not sure if the current situation will destroy Israel in the long run or not, miracles do happen, but it's f@#$ed in so many ways, so answering the question of the OP -- nothing, everything has been done already. Americans won't not proclaim Israel as an enemy, but will care a lot less about their troubles than they used to.



Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
1). America stops funding their military.
2). UN tries a bunch of them for war crimes, only going after those that are extremely, blatantly guilty.

I promise you, they would wake up pretty quick.


Likely by forciblly removing all palestians from areas they want, unilaterally taking what they want, set up permanent borders and say "the hell with it" to every other area... causing political and structural collpase in gaza and the West bank forcing Egypt and Jordan to take over respectivly.

Backing Israel in a corner would likely only make things worse for Palestine.

Israel's military spending per GDP isn't actually that high, and they could likely get around any finicancial aid lost via trading it's weapons and going around US bans it won't have to follow anymore.

Like the recent alleged drone sales to Azerbaijan. 


You think they'd do that after America has stopped supporting them? I do not.

 

Regardless, if they escalates the problem, then the UN would of course have to escalate, first step being trade embargo, followed by removing Israel's status as a recognised nation, and finally with an invasion.

 

It's all moot anyway, because America will never withdraw support. I'm just saying what could be done to finish the conflict. Israel can obviously never 'win', but they can never 'lose' when they have the support of America and the support/indifference of the UN.


That's the only time they would do it.

As for everything else?  Are you kidding me?

Sudan, Syria and the rest of the stuff they ignore you think they'd do anything to Israel?

A country with a modern military and nuclear weapons?

Not a chance, you are living in a dream world.   Hell, the UN wouldn't even invade to stop genocide in countries with rag tag primitive militaries with zero political alliances among the security council.  Let alone a forced deportation done by a country that has a military that is arguably more advanced then most europeon countries.  What with it's own domestic drones as just one example.

I mean, don't be fooled, Israel's military is one of the top 10 in the world just by the numbers, and they're a lot more hardened then what most of the UN would put up. 

Israel is more or less untouchable with or without US aid at this point.

All there is too do is offer as much incentives as possible to make the best deal for the Palestinians as fast as possible.

Except the Palestinians aren't prepaired to accept any kind of deal they could reasonably expect to get.

 

EDIT: That's not even counting the fact that their economy is actually pretty self sufficient and a lot of Israeli companies are just ones that are vitally important, to which most of the world would likely lose out more on then they would.


I'm not saying an invasion by Arab States, as you say, that would fail, and even if it did, it wouldn't solve anything. the conflict would continue, but now the Israelis would be the guerilla force.

 

I am saying that the invasion would succeed if it was UN led, with America and Germany abstaining, and all other UN countries supporting.



scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
1). America stops funding their military.
2). UN tries a bunch of them for war crimes, only going after those that are extremely, blatantly guilty.

I promise you, they would wake up pretty quick.


Likely by forciblly removing all palestians from areas they want, unilaterally taking what they want, set up permanent borders and say "the hell with it" to every other area... causing political and structural collpase in gaza and the West bank forcing Egypt and Jordan to take over respectivly.

Backing Israel in a corner would likely only make things worse for Palestine.

Israel's military spending per GDP isn't actually that high, and they could likely get around any finicancial aid lost via trading it's weapons and going around US bans it won't have to follow anymore.

Like the recent alleged drone sales to Azerbaijan. 


You think they'd do that after America has stopped supporting them? I do not.

 

Regardless, if they escalates the problem, then the UN would of course have to escalate, first step being trade embargo, followed by removing Israel's status as a recognised nation, and finally with an invasion.

 

It's all moot anyway, because America will never withdraw support. I'm just saying what could be done to finish the conflict. Israel can obviously never 'win', but they can never 'lose' when they have the support of America and the support/indifference of the UN.


That's the only time they would do it.

As for everything else?  Are you kidding me?

Sudan, Syria and the rest of the stuff they ignore you think they'd do anything to Israel?

A country with a modern military and nuclear weapons?

Not a chance, you are living in a dream world.   Hell, the UN wouldn't even invade to stop genocide in countries with rag tag primitive militaries with zero political alliances among the security council.  Let alone a forced deportation done by a country that has a military that is arguably more advanced then most europeon countries.  What with it's own domestic drones as just one example.

I mean, don't be fooled, Israel's military is one of the top 10 in the world just by the numbers, and they're a lot more hardened then what most of the UN would put up. 

Israel is more or less untouchable with or without US aid at this point.

All there is too do is offer as much incentives as possible to make the best deal for the Palestinians as fast as possible.

Except the Palestinians aren't prepaired to accept any kind of deal they could reasonably expect to get.

 

EDIT: That's not even counting the fact that their economy is actually pretty self sufficient and a lot of Israeli companies are just ones that are vitally important, to which most of the world would likely lose out more on then they would.


I'm not saying an invasion by Arab States, as you say, that would fail, and even if it did, it wouldn't solve anything. the conflict would continue, but now the Israelis would be the guerilla force.

 

I am saying that the invasion would succeed if it was UN led, with America and Germany abstaining, and all other UN countries supporting.


I got what your saying.

And i'm saying.  It isn't going to happen.

Nations don't fight pointless wars in which they can take casualities for no benefit.  Hell, they don't even fight pointless was in which they can take no casualties for no benefit as seen by previous ethnic cleansings being allowed.

A UN Led invasion would be able to beat Israel sure.  However  A UN led invasion would take more casualties then any UN led intervention anywhere.   Way more action and casulties then anyone has been willing to take for a completely innocent group, let alone the Palestinians.

A  UN invasion wihtout America and Germany...  It could succeed eventually, but they'd take a LOT of casualties so support would need to be sustained.  You really underestimate the teeth of the Israeli army, and that's assuming they don't say "screw it" and use nuclear weapons.

Without the US at least providing air support it would be EXTREMELY trorublesome as the Israeli armed air forces would be as advanced as the best options the UN forces could provide, they'd be more expeirenced, and they'd have. 

The UN isn't going to do it.  The Arab states wouldn't even go to war with Israel at this point.  The last time it was soley self interest.  At this point there isn't any real advantage to military conflict.

 



MrBubbles said:

oh?  you find those countries very similar?

Canada doesn't exist on my world map. It's not even a country, it's a client state. So I don't see any reason why I should really differentiate one from another.

 

 

//Brief history of Israel :D



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Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:

 

 


I got what your saying.

And i'm saying.  It isn't going to happen.

Nations don't fight pointless wars in which they can take casualities for no benefit.  Hell, they don't even fight pointless was in which they can take no casualties for no benefit as seen by previous ethnic cleansings being allowed.

A UN Led invasion would be able to beat Israel sure.  However  A UN led invasion would take more casualties then any UN led intervention anywhere.   Way more action and casulties then anyone has been willing to take for a completely innocent group, let alone the Palestinians.

A  UN invasion wihtout America and Germany...  It could succeed eventually, but they'd take a LOT of casualties so support would need to be sustained.  You really underestimate the teeth of the Israeli army, and that's assuming they don't say "screw it" and use nuclear weapons.

Without the US at least providing air support it would be EXTREMELY trorublesome as the Israeli armed air forces would be as advanced as the best options the UN forces could provide, they'd be more expeirenced, and they'd have. 

The UN isn't going to do it.  The Arab states wouldn't even go to war with Israel at this point.  The last time it was soley self interest.  At this point there isn't any real advantage to military conflict.

 

Well, the topic is "what can be realistically done" and these are the options:

A) Options which don't "do anything about Israel"

1) The best thing to do is leave them to work it out. This will never reach an end, the circle of violence will continue.

2) Nuke/napalm/salt the entire region until it is uninhabitable, teaching both sides not to be such idiots. No-one would dare do it, would simply force the problem elsewhere.

3) An arab alliance military solution. Israel will defeat it.

 

B) Options which do something about Israel.

1) International alliance against Israel, led by the USA, with all major nations bar Germany involved. So unlikely as to not really be worth considering.

2) International alliance against Israel, led by the UN, with all major nations bar USA and Germany involved. Fairly unlikely to happen as it would be moderately challenging, and little to gain for the other countries.

3) Pure diplomatic solution. A nice first attempt, but will almost certainly fail, leading to either B1 or B2.

 

Most likely option to happen is of course A1. Most likely to happen and succeed, to "do something about Israel" = B2.



scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:

 

 


I got what your saying.

And i'm saying.  It isn't going to happen.

Nations don't fight pointless wars in which they can take casualities for no benefit.  Hell, they don't even fight pointless was in which they can take no casualties for no benefit as seen by previous ethnic cleansings being allowed.

A UN Led invasion would be able to beat Israel sure.  However  A UN led invasion would take more casualties then any UN led intervention anywhere.   Way more action and casulties then anyone has been willing to take for a completely innocent group, let alone the Palestinians.

A  UN invasion wihtout America and Germany...  It could succeed eventually, but they'd take a LOT of casualties so support would need to be sustained.  You really underestimate the teeth of the Israeli army, and that's assuming they don't say "screw it" and use nuclear weapons.

Without the US at least providing air support it would be EXTREMELY trorublesome as the Israeli armed air forces would be as advanced as the best options the UN forces could provide, they'd be more expeirenced, and they'd have. 

The UN isn't going to do it.  The Arab states wouldn't even go to war with Israel at this point.  The last time it was soley self interest.  At this point there isn't any real advantage to military conflict.

 

Well, the topic is "what can be realistically done" and these are the options:

A) Options which don't "do anything about Israel"

1) The best thing to do is leave them to work it out. This will never reach an end, the circle of violence will continue.

2) Nuke/napalm/salt the entire region until it is uninhabitable, teaching both sides not to be such idiots. No-one would dare do it, would simply force the problem elsewhere.

3) An arab alliance military solution. Israel will defeat it.

 

B) Options which do something about Israel.

1) International alliance against Israel, led by the USA, with all major nations bar Germany involved. So unlikely as to not really be worth considering.

2) International alliance against Israel, led by the UN, with all major nations bar USA and Germany involved. Fairly unlikely to happen as it would be moderately challenging, and little to gain for the other countries.

3) Pure diplomatic solution. A nice first attempt, but will almost certainly fail, leading to either B1 or B2.

 

Most likely option to happen is of course A1. Most likely to happen and succeed, to "do something about Israel" = B2.


My point is... the B options aren't realisitic... I mean, even just a plain out boycott... I mean... I know people who have tried to Boycott Israel.  They essentiall gave up because it was nearly impossible.

I mean, chances are the computer you are using this very moment had parts made in Israel.  A boycott of Israel would cause a massive computer chip shortage.

The answer of what can be done realistically with Israel is... Nothing. 

There was a better chance that Bush's iraq middle east policy was going to lead to perfect democratic states. (which was obviously ridiculious).

 

 

The only REAL solution would be to convince Palestine to take the best deal it can get immediatly so the borders are set before Israel consdiers more land undeniably Israel. Even abandon Jersualem. Rise it's people out of poverty and negative circumstances, grow their economy and become important.

While pressing UN legislation that the deal they signed was unfair and coerced, and wait long term for Israel to slip in global power/importance.

 

That is by far their best option, but one they refuse to take out of pride and religion.



Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:

 

 

 

 


My point is... the B options aren't realisitic...

 

...convince Palestine to ... abandon Jersualem. 


And you say my ideas are unrealistic.



scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:

 

 

 

 


My point is... the B options aren't realisitic...

 

...convince Palestine to ... abandon Jersualem. 


And you say my ideas are unrealistic.


All you would need to do, is convince them to agree that Jersualems fate be left up to it's Palestinian citizens.

A majority of them would rather be part of Israel then Palestine.

Though yes, I think it's more realistic for them to finally realize they're only shooting themeslves in the foot, then it is to declare war on a country with a highly advanced military who industries are vital for the modern econonomy.



mai said:

the2real4mafol said:

But why do you compare Brits to nazis, thats unfair. We may have repressed people in our colonies, but we never systematically killed people in mass like them. The nazis are on new heights when it came to doing horrid and unforgivable things to other races. They worked people into the ground, gassed them, burned them, starved them, done whatever they could to make their victims feel completely worthless. We brits never were anywhere near that bad, the slaves had it way better than the victims of the holocaust.

It's not about Britian per se, it's about colonial empires in general, British Empire just being the prime example among them. Goebbels admitted that they've learned a lot from their "British friends" and perfected it, like gas chambers and concentration camps used in Kenya. The whole idea of untermenschen and utter racism has been idee fixe for a whole generation of British theorists of colonialism, who proclaimed Britain as a leading force of the civilization (even famous Mackinder wasn't free of that). The saving grace for British in that regard probably was lack of technological advancement at the time, which prevented from maintaining highly effective death factories (hence "never were that bad") and lack of "marketing" of wrongdoings with photo- and film materials, plus the fact they never practiced this kind of atrocities in Europe. Of course, to a degree every colonial empire including even the US is guilty of this kind of things (hence the term "white man guilt"), but it's no surprise that I mentioned British Empire specifically.

So the idea is not who killed more, but substantial things like mentioned in my point #2. Americans might have already overcome your "score" by their drone attacks on yet another village by accident, but they do not practice purpsoeful genocide approvied by high authorities, like Britain did here and there.

Bonus: British have invaded nine out of ten countries :D

It should be noted that Britain was invaded, too. Three times AFAIR, out of which two were successful.

Ok fair enough, but you could of said that it was to do with the empire to start with. But we may have killed people in the colonies for stepping out of line, but we let them live a decent life if they choose to work with us. the nazis gave no such choice.

But im glad you post here, i always learn something new lol.

As for the three attempts to invade us, they were the saxons, normans and romans. Only the romans were not so succesful. We have been independent for nearly a millenium! lol Although, the nazis themselves could of easily invaded but choose not to bother, luckily for my and your country



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