| the2real4mafol said: a pro-palestine public vs a pro-israel government in the west now thats interesting. http://rt.com/news/israel-gaza-attack-protests-932/ |
we had protests here already in the UK, I went to one of the ones in Bristol and we have one at my Uni on Monday too, there was a huge turnout for the one in Bristol and they had a massive one today in London as well
RoryGamesFree said:
I have seen a UN report that states that the IDF used human shields ("During the period under examination, the Israeli occupying forces also rounded-up thousands of Palestinian males and approximately 7,000 were detained by Israel in a mass arbitrary detention. Many of the detainees were subjected to ill-treatment and, according to reports, some were tortured. The occupying forces raided and searched innumerable Palestinian homes, humiliated and harassed residents and in many instances looted homes. An even more condemnable practice was the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields while conducting those searches and while carrying out military advances in Palestinian cities, villages and refugee camps." "Then comes the Israeli military assault on the Jenin refugee camp, one square kilometer in which 13,000 Palestine refugees, who were uprooted from the homes and properties in 1948, had been living. The assault began on 3 April and continued for 10 days. The Israeli occupying forces used helicopter gunships to fire TOW missiles against such a densely populated area. The occupying forces also used anti-aircraft guns, able to fire 3,000 rounds a minute. They deployed scores of tanks and armored vehicles equipped with machine guns and used snipers. The occupying forces also used bulldozers to raze homes and to burrow wide lanes throughout the camp, knocking down whole blocks of homes, in many instances while the inhabitants were still inside. The occupying forces intensively used civilians in the camp as human shields while conducting this military assault."), I have seen 0 evidence that Hamas do, and certainly not in this conflict. they are the democratically elected government...in elections the EU and other observes said were fine and reflected public will...the kids may well be their own because they don't expect other nations to get away with bombing a democraticaly elected government. in response to being illegally occupied, treated like dirt and being refused access to basic amenietes...if anything it's restrained, Israel had done more than enough to provoke a war by any other nations standards with Gaza decades ago, those rockets also kill people rarely and indeed more Israeli's die of peanut allergy in an average year than the rocket attacks.
and AFTER the illegal occupation and stuff I mentioned, oh and after the IDF shot a child and assasinated government officials... largely because they didn't, they are a crude militia of a military force at best in an occupied and beseiged piece of land that they can't even sustain themselves with thanks to Israel... |
If you've seen no proof of it. All that proves is that you aren't looking. Since they outright say they intentionally use human shields during Israeli bombings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTu-AUE9ycs
As for the rest of your statement... these are terrible incidents... and why are they just incidents? Because it's RARE when Israel has slip ups like this.
Compaired to Hamas where such things are the standard.
You won't find an army anywhere in the world engaged in a conflcit that has a perfect humans rights record because often times the military under the stress fucks up.
Also, you've got your cause and effect wrong.
Everything Israel has done has been BECAUSE of the rocket launches. They came first.
If you want proof....
Look at the West Bank.
Compare the West Bank to Gaza.
Ask "Why are these two areas so different. If what Israel wants is just to tortue Palestinians"
This is a bed of Gaza's own making... What israel is doing is nothing any other country wouldn't be doing under the same circumstances.
It's fine to be calm about it over in the UK. I'm guessing if your uncle got killed by a missle though, or father, or even child... I think you'd want airstrikes to destroy their missle launching capabilties. Which is what these attacks are.
I don't think, with your family in the crossfire, you'd want to allow them the freedom to procure more and more missles, and to go for a "1 for 1" policy on air strikes, letting constant missle launching sites be built until enough deaths have been "racked up" to allow you to protect your own people by destroying one of the dozens of launchers aiming to kill your people.
Like some ridciulious beurcratic game of calculus with peoples lives.
If anyone needs to look in the mirror when it comes to promoting inhumane activities... it's you.
RoryGamesFree said:
|
Ok cool but i'm from London and this is the first i heard about it, I guess any British media ignored it completely. I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks the Israeli action is actually bad for what it is.
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Kasz216 said:
If you've seen no proof of it. All that proves is that you aren't looking. Since they outright say they intentionally use human shields during Israeli bombings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTu-AUE9ycs
As for the rest of your statement... these are terrible incidents... and why are they just incidents? Because it's RARE when Israel has slip ups like this. Compaired to Hamas where such things are the standard. You won't find an army anywhere in the world engaged in a conflcit that has a perfect humans rights record because often times the military under the stress fucks up.
Also, you've got your cause and effect wrong. Everything Israel has done has been BECAUSE of the rocket launches. They came first. If you want proof.... Look at the West Bank. Compare the West Bank to Gaza. Ask "Why are these two areas so different. If what Israel wants is just to tortue Palestinians"
This is a bed of Gaza's own making... What israel is doing is nothing any other country wouldn't be doing under the same circumstances.
It's fine to be calm about it over in the UK. I'm guessing if your uncle got killed by a missle though, or father, or even child... I think you'd want airstrikes to destroy their missle launching capabilties. Which is what these attacks are. I don't think, with your family in the crossfire, you'd want to allow them the freedom to procure more and more missles, and to go for a "1 for 1" policy on air strikes, letting constant missle launching sites be built until enough deaths have been "racked up" to allow you to protect your own people by destroying one of the dozens of launchers aiming to kill your people. Like some ridciulious beurcratic game of calculus with peoples lives.
If anyone needs to look in the mirror when it comes to promoting inhumane activities... it's you. |
so they copy the tactics of the people who attack them and occcupy their land, who'd have thought people do that...
the IDF are depraved scum mate, face it, your Zionism has blinded you but by all means ignore the facts.
yeah cause the West Bank is doing so well as a result right? there's also huge geographical differences that are the primary cause of the differences, cutting off Gaza from the West Bank is also a cause of the radicalisation in Gaza...it's a death camp of Israel's making, the only reason they don't do it in the West Bank is that the geography and controls they have over it are much more of an issue or people there would fight back against the cuntish scum of the earth rats that are the IDF and the illegal occupation of their land.
you again demonstrate you care not for the thousands upon thousands of Palestinains whose lives have been ruined by Israel's actions, occupation and attacks and ignore that Israel always kills far, far more civilians and people in general in every conflict it has, but hey when you are a blind cunt who cares about anyone other than your precious Israeli's right? I would rather no-one died, but clearly you are happy with near genocide but are angered by any defence against that genocide.
burecratic game? like the USA refusing to ever allow the barbarism of Israel's government to be held to account you mean? like their ignorance of the thousands of deaths, kidnappings and people living in poverty in Gaza because of Israel?
no it is YOU, your attitude is sickeningly depraved and you are a shame to humanity with it, your love of every Israeli life but utter dismissal of all the Palestinians who die and your love of the Israeli government and military whilst condemning everyything Hamas does without question...you are not only in the wrong, but you are blind to it, you are no better than people who defended the Nazi's and Hitler.
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the2real4mafol said:
Ok cool but i'm from London and this is the first i heard about it, I guess any British media ignored it completely. I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks the Israeli action is actually bad for what it is. |
the BBC has a huge Israeli lobby constantly pressuring it, not to mention that many of it's executives are known to collude with Zionists, the government here, well, the largest interest group within the Conservative Party is the CFI (Conservative Friends of Israel) (blind zionists basically), a similar group Labour Friends of Israel is prominent within their party as well, the Lib Dems historically have been very critical of Israel even calling for an end to UK aid/arms to them, but now in coalition they have capitulated on that just like any other polices they had that werent depraved. the rest of the UK media is owned by bussinessmen who have interests/partners in Israel or who are Zionists as well, so your best bet is outside the mainstream or blogs or overseas media like Aljazeera or Russia Today, Democracy Now! is an indy news programme from the USA that can be good at times as well.
RoryGamesFree said:
the BBC has a huge Israeli lobby constantly pressuring it, not to mention that many of it's executives are known to collude with Zionists, the government here, well, the largest interest group within the Conservative Party is the CFI (Conservative Friends of Israel) (blind zionists basically), a similar group Labour Friends of Israel is prominent within their party as well, the Lib Dems historically have been very critical of Israel even calling for an end to UK aid/arms to them, but now in coalition they have capitulated on that just like any other polices they had that werent depraved. the rest of the UK media is owned by bussinessmen who have interests/partners in Israel or who are Zionists as well, so your best bet is outside the mainstream or blogs or overseas media like Aljazeera or Russia Today, Democracy Now! is an indy news programme from the USA that can be good at times as well. |
Yeah that's pretty much why I get my news from Russia Today/ Al Jazeera now, they focus on everything/ most things that go on in the world rather than events that are key to their self-interests. It's sad that these western governments even dare to claim they are representative at all. We say one thing, and they do the other, it's just sad.
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RoryGamesFree said:
the IDF are depraved scum mate, face it, your Zionism has blinded you but by all means ignore the facts.
yeah cause the West Bank is doing so well as a result right? there's also huge geographical differences that are the primary cause of the differences, cutting off Gaza from the West Bank is also a cause of the radicalisation in Gaza...it's a death camp of Israel's making, the only reason they don't do it in the West Bank is that the geography and controls they have over it are much more of an issue or people there would fight back against the cuntish scum of the earth rats that are the IDF and the illegal occupation of their land. you again demonstrate you care not for the thousands upon thousands of Palestinains whose lives have been ruined by Israel's actions, occupation and attacks and ignore that Israel always kills far, far more civilians and people in general in every conflict it has, but hey when you are a blind cunt who cares about anyone other than your precious Israeli's right? I would rather no-one died, but clearly you are happy with near genocide but are angered by any defence against that genocide. burecratic game? like the USA refusing to ever allow the barbarism of Israel's government to be held to account you mean? like their ignorance of the thousands of deaths, kidnappings and people living in poverty in Gaza because of Israel? no it is YOU, your attitude is sickeningly depraved and you are a shame to humanity with it, your love of every Israeli life but utter dismissal of all the Palestinians who die and your love of the Israeli government and military whilst condemning everyything Hamas does without question...you are not only in the wrong, but you are blind to it, you are no better than people who defended the Nazi's and Hitler. |
A) They did it first... they weren't copying anybody.
B) Again... why is Gaza cut off. You don't seem to know. Again, it was because of Hamas' actions. No other reason.
I don't love Israel. I quite honestly don't give a shit about Israel. The world would of been much better off if your people would of told the Jewish people "No you can't settle in Israel.". Nor do I dismiss the palestinians that die. This whole thing is your countries fault afterall. Quite honestly it's the UK that should be cleaning up it's own damn mess.
I simply don't have any favorites nor a reason to have a favorite so i can look at reasonably.
It's pretty simple. As long as Gaza keeps firing rockets into Israel. Israel has every right to do what they can to stop those rockets from killing someone. If the IRA got big again and Ireland start lobbing rockets into England to get land you guys are still occupying, i'm guessing you'd want Ireland invaded and it's missle launching capabilties destroyed.
The idea of "proportiant force" is a stupid one, once things escalate into the other side trying to kill you. At that point, you shouldn't have to apologize for being better at it when the other side just won't stop.
If Gaza stopped firing rockets, stopped the terrorism. They'd have a moral highground. As it is though, what happened to them only happened because of their own terrorism... and to blame Israel for this is to essentially blame them because they're better.
It's like having a small kid next door constantly pick fights with you, then you get the blame because when you fight back you inevitably win.
Which is actually Hamas' strategy.
When Israel tried to step back and do the right thing... Hamas attacked them harder. As it is, Hamas see's gazan's lives as nothing more but poltiical capital to be spent... and that's exactly what they are doing.
When instead, such acts are rejected, and they accept a peaceful doctrine. Then they will have the moral upperhand.
As it is, they're just like a drunk smaller asshole picking a fight with a bigger asshole.
Also while Al Jazeera is good... the RT or Russia Today has been described by more then one ex soviet intelligence official as state funded Russian propaganda.
Russia Today is essentially Russian Fox News.
the2real4mafol said:
Unfortunately, what is more likely. Is that we in the west, will continue to turn a blind eye to it all, like nothing is happening at all. It would be a miracle if the UN came to some sort of resolution or action on this at all |
Sadly i have to agree with you on that point. Things are most likely going to get a whole lot worse before they start to get better (if at all).
This is the Game of Thrones
Where you either win
or you DIE
|
the2real4mafol said: But why do you compare Brits to nazis, thats unfair. We may have repressed people in our colonies, but we never systematically killed people in mass like them. The nazis are on new heights when it came to doing horrid and unforgivable things to other races. They worked people into the ground, gassed them, burned them, starved them, done whatever they could to make their victims feel completely worthless. We brits never were anywhere near that bad, the slaves had it way better than the victims of the holocaust. |
It's not about Britian per se, it's about colonial empires in general, British Empire just being the prime example among them. Goebbels admitted that they've learned a lot from their "British friends" and perfected it, like gas chambers and concentration camps used in Kenya. The whole idea of untermenschen and utter racism has been idee fixe for a whole generation of British theorists of colonialism, who proclaimed Britain as a leading force of the civilization (even famous Mackinder wasn't free of that). The saving grace for British in that regard probably was lack of technological advancement at the time, which prevented from maintaining highly effective death factories (hence "never were that bad") and lack of "marketing" of wrongdoings with photo- and film materials, plus the fact they never practiced this kind of atrocities in Europe. Of course, to a degree every colonial empire including even the US is guilty of this kind of things (hence the term "white man guilt"), but it's no surprise that I mentioned British Empire specifically.
So the idea is not who killed more, but substantial things like mentioned in my point #2. Americans might have already overcome your "score" by their drone attacks on yet another village by accident, but they do not practice purpsoeful genocide approvied by high authorities, like Britain did here and there.
Bonus: British have invaded nine out of ten countries :D
It should be noted that Britain was invaded, too. Three times AFAIR, out of which two were successful.
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