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Forums - Sony - Has the Cell peaked? If no, would it work for next gen? - More questions inside

Heavenly_King said:
dahuman said:
Gilgamesh said:
drkohler said:
Gilgamesh said:
dahuman said:


You can't really compare them, they are for different things, a Cell behaves a lot more like a GPU, if that makes any sense.

So like people mentioned early why doesn't Sony eliminate the GPU and put two Cell processors in the PS4 like they originally were going to do? Surely the Cell is cheaper now to get good benifits out of it.

A cell does not behave like a GPU at all, if that makes more sense to you...

When the idea of using two cells in the PS3 was laid out, your typical GPU was a pretty "weak" thing, it had a very few shader groups running at a few hundred MHz at best. So using a 8-core SPU chip at several GHz was "a lot faster" than any existing GPU, a t least on paper (and apparently they tried and couldn't get it to perform reasonably for whatever reasons - hence the GT7800 GPU tacked into the PS3 in the end). Times have changed since. Even a basically mid-range APU like the A10 has a GPU with almost 100 shader groups, running close to 1GHz. You can't stuff so many SPUs in a cell to compete with that nowadays.

The correct path to the PS4 would have been an improved cell chip, 3 enhanced PPUs and 4-6 enhanced SPUs (no need for more SPUs, as the GPU now does the graphics stuff) at 28/32nm (basically leading to a 150mm^2 chip, not much bigger than the cell chip now), and a modern powerful GPU. However, with IBM/Toshiba leaving the cell playfield, they would have had to find ways to actually redesign the thing on their own. They chose to listen to AMD ("we are building the superduperchips") and are now sitting in front of a train wreck, as AMD hasn't really built rockets into their CPUs. It doesn't help either that suddenly everybody thinks how "GPGPU" solves everything and how good an A10 fits into that hype. Forget the hype about GPGPU, it is completely meaningless when talking about game consoles.

A game console has to run a game on a powerful CPU and make pretty pictures with a powerful GPU, there is no place here for the GP in a GPGPU (unless your game is about multiplying large matrices and solving linear equations - I definitley doubt such a game would sell). If we look at the latest rumours, this is what the XBoxNext has, a powerful CPU (FX8xxx) and a modern GPU (HD7xxx). PS4 lands in nowhere land with an A10 (even with a second 6670GPU tacked on).

Would an APU be easier to design games on then a CPU+GPU console?

They'd be the same, but would use less power and be cheaper to produce which are both good things, if they slap some fast memory into the new console then that'd also resolve the memory speed issue, they could even do an APU+GPU setup and have something close to a hybrid crossfire setup if they want.

I don't understand anything of what I am reading lol.  Too much technical stuff.

Can someone tell that if the rumors about the PS4 are a good thing in terms of power??

no specs yet, can't say



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dahuman said:

There is one very important purpose for a GPGPU in gaming, and that's physics simulation, it all depends on how much you want to off load and how you want your game to come out. The balance would be in the hands of the devs obviously.

The instant problem of doing physics in the console GPU is, of course, that your GPU no longer has enough power to "make pretty pictures". If you want 1080P/60Hz as your target, you'd better put a high-end GPU into your console... Technically, an A10/HD7770 combo would still be ok, do the physics on the A10 and forget all about that pseudo-xfire stuff.



drkohler said:
dahuman said:

There is one very important purpose for a GPGPU in gaming, and that's physics simulation, it all depends on how much you want to off load and how you want your game to come out. The balance would be in the hands of the devs obviously.

The instant problem of doing physics in the console GPU is, of course, that your GPU no longer has enough power to "make pretty pictures". If you want 1080P/60Hz as your target, you'd better put a high-end GPU into your console... Technically, an A10/HD7770 combo would still be ok, do the physics on the A10 and forget all about that pseudo-xfire stuff.


That's why I said it depends on how much the offload would be, for example, Wii U setup with a supposed weaker CPU. Nvidia does just fine with their stupid physx bullshit, I say stupid because they won't make it open to AMD GPUs and Hybrid PhysX has been put on hold since the dev's old ass Nvidia card broke. the APU+GPU setup would be a great setup though, then like you said, they can do physics on the APU's GPU and use it to assist the more powerful GPU in other areas as devs see fit, we just have no details yet.



Gilgamesh said:

So like people mentioned early why doesn't Sony eliminate the GPU and put two Cell processors in the PS4 like they originally were going to do? Surely the Cell is cheaper now to get good benifits out of it.


Because while the CELL is 10x better at the brute force floating point calculations needed for modern rendering than a traditional CPU. A modern GPU is over 100x better at that type of workload. 

The CELL is basically like a half way point between a modern CPU and GPU in terms of design. But while it may offer high parallelism and massive amounts of floating point math compaired to a  traditional CPU and much better interger performance, memory managmeent, branch prediction, flexibility and per thread performance compaired to a GPU. The CELL also offers poor floating point performance and parallelsim compaired to a GPU and poor memory management, integer performance, flexibility etc compaired to a traditional CPU. It's a jack of all trades master of none.

Now there is a trend towards heterogeneous processors being the future of computing. But that relies on the need for flexibility to outway the need for efficiency. A specialised peice of hardware will always be able to outperform a general perpouse one for the same price, or even a fraction of the price. And it seems the future will be more like a modern GPU than the CELL anyway, even for heterogeneous computing. 



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

Gilgamesh said:

But would throwing in an average GPU along with the APU put it at the level of a high end PC?

The best you can throw at an A10 APU is a second HD7760, you get about 150% performance of the single A10 (on PCs).  You will fall waaay short of a high end PC. Most game benchmarks I've seen can't reach the targeted 1080p/60Hz goal, sometimes considerably. It is the old problem of crossfiring two GPUs. Usually you are better off buying the better single GPU than Xfiring two weaker GPUs (and pseudo-xfiring is not nearly as good as "true" xfiring). This all applies to PCs, of course. Direct drivers on the register level will considerably improve speeds on A10 consoles, but high quality 1080p/60Hz games.. I just don't see it.



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dahuman said:


That's why I said it depends on how much the offload would be, for example, Wii U setup with a supposed weaker CPU. Nvidia does just fine with their stupid physx bullshit, I say stupid because they won't make it open to AMD GPUs and Hybrid PhysX has been put on hold since the dev's old ass Nvidia card broke. the APU+GPU setup would be a great setup though, then like you said, they can do physics on the APU's GPU and use it to assist the more powerful GPU in other areas as devs see fit, we just have no details yet.

I lost interest in following the PhysX stuff. It started with dedicated PPUs (Aegis or whatever it was called), dedicated graphic cards, then went to doing it in existing GPUs. The former solutions are too expensive for average Joe, the bechmarks I'd seen of the latter had (sometimes very) dramatic decreases in fps (no surprise here, and I think only a few games actaully tried it).



drkohler said:
Gilgamesh said:

But would throwing in an average GPU along with the APU put it at the level of a high end PC?

The best you can throw at an A10 APU is a second HD7760, you get about 150% performance of the single A10 (on PCs).  You will fall waaay short of a high end PC. Most game benchmarks I've seen can't reach the targeted 1080p/60Hz goal, sometimes considerably. It is the old problem of crossfiring two GPUs. Usually you are better off buying the better single GPU than Xfiring two weaker GPUs (and pseudo-xfiring is not nearly as good as "true" xfiring). This all applies to PCs, of course. Direct drivers on the register level will considerably improve speeds on A10 consoles, but high quality 1080p/60Hz games.. I just don't see it.

But like all CPU's and GPU's that go into gaming consoles (and now APU's), they're all modified slightly somehow to benifit the console. So a modified A10 and modified HD7760 should provide us with graphics we have yet to see on a PC right?



Oh also it's also worth noting Intel was once developing a CPU similar to the CELL in many ways codenamed Larrabee. Which was meant to have 32+ stripped down x86 CPU cores (with a dedicated texture unit in each core, 4 way multithreading with in order execution, and a very wide SIMD unit for floating point math) back in 2010, in 2009 a prototype offered 1 TFLOP at 1GHz well over 4x that of the CELL (graphics performance would likely have also been much better than the CELL thanks to the dedicated hardware as well) after sinking $4-4.5 billion into the project they decided to roll the tech into their traditional CPUs and intergrated GPU projects and skrap the project as performance was not competitive with modern GPUs.



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

Gilgamesh said:
drkohler said:

The best you can throw at an A10 APU is a second HD7760, you get about 150% performance of the single A10 (on PCs).  You will fall waaay short of a high end PC. Most game benchmarks I've seen can't reach the targeted 1080p/60Hz goal, sometimes considerably. It is the old problem of crossfiring two GPUs. Usually you are better off buying the better single GPU than Xfiring two weaker GPUs (and pseudo-xfiring is not nearly as good as "true" xfiring). This all applies to PCs, of course. Direct drivers on the register level will considerably improve speeds on A10 consoles, but high quality 1080p/60Hz games.. I just don't see it.

But like all CPU's and GPU's that go into gaming consoles (and now APU's), they're all modified slightly somehow to benifit the console. So a modified A10 and modified HD7760 should provide us with graphics we have yet to see on a PC right?

No (and BTW it's 7670, not 7760) - combined performance of that combo (A10-5700 with 7660D@760MHz) is 12.5GPixels/s; 37.4GTexels/s; and 1352GFLOPS. No amount of "modification" can put that to level of 7970 with 33.6GPixels/s; 134.4GTexels/s and 4300GFLOPS (which is, if we take a look at ATI GPU history and recent rumours, almost what will 8870 will be pushing when it launches probalby early next year). Check out Superchunk's thread, I posted table there several days ago for quick referencing:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=136756&page=87

I'm afraid all next-gen consoles will be vastly inferior to high-end PCs, even at launch, not to mention few years from now. Which for PC crowd could be either very bad or very good thing, depending on what approach (some) developers take.



HoloDust said:
Gilgamesh said:
drkohler said:

The best you can throw at an A10 APU is a second HD7760, you get about 150% performance of the single A10 (on PCs).  You will fall waaay short of a high end PC. Most game benchmarks I've seen can't reach the targeted 1080p/60Hz goal, sometimes considerably. It is the old problem of crossfiring two GPUs. Usually you are better off buying the better single GPU than Xfiring two weaker GPUs (and pseudo-xfiring is not nearly as good as "true" xfiring). This all applies to PCs, of course. Direct drivers on the register level will considerably improve speeds on A10 consoles, but high quality 1080p/60Hz games.. I just don't see it.

But like all CPU's and GPU's that go into gaming consoles (and now APU's), they're all modified slightly somehow to benifit the console. So a modified A10 and modified HD7760 should provide us with graphics we have yet to see on a PC right?

No (and BTW it's 7670, not 7760) - combined performance of that combo (A10-5700 with 7660D@760MHz) is 12.5GPixels/s; 37.4GTexels/s; and 1352GFLOPS. No amount of "modification" can put that to level of 7970 with 33.6GPixels/s; 134.4GTexels/s and 4300GFLOPS (which is, if we take a look at ATI GPU history and recent rumours, almost what will 8870 will be pushing when it launches probalby early next year). Check out Superchunk's thread, I posted table there several days ago for quick referencing:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=136756&page=87

I'm afraid all next-gen consoles will be vastly inferior to high-end PCs, even at launch, not to mention few years from now. Which for PC crowd could be either very bad or very good thing, depending on what approach (some) developers take.

 

i think developers aim only for one thing: money. yes, a high-end-pc is most probably even better by now than what we can expect from next-gen-consoles but i am sure games will be developed for consoles due to very good sales-numbers. well, pc-sales are hard to count nowadays with digital distribution but i highly doubt that assassin's creed 3, for example, sold nearly the numbers it did on consoles (not to mention both consoles combined...). i think the situation will be like it was the last years: the pc *is* of course technically more advanced but 1. it is not really used by games and 2. it is quite expensive to develop a game especially for consoles and again for pc so i think pc will still get ports the next years, with polished graphics.