The pain only comes after something wrong is done.
From your point of view there would be no life as people would suffer. So you`d rather throw something good away because of the pain that could be avoided?

It's not that people suffer, but that some suffer a lot more (well, some even for an ethernity) than others while some can do more about their situation than others.

Going back to my above example: I would love to adopt kittens despite knowing that some of them would go through inevitable pain at times. But if I knew that some of them would not accept my food, I would choose to not adopt those specific kittens. God should resonate the same way with the people who are going to hell, and choose not to create them in the first place.

1. So, basically, God wanted to punish the humans for not listening to him, and for trusting the snake who made them choose to eat the fruit. Even after they were in great shame.

Looks like this God is not a huge fan of human nature. I, myself, would not blame my kids if they started to trust a complete stranger who happened to eventually hurt them. I would feel sorry for my kids, not call them sinners or anything similar.

2. I wouldn't blame my hypothetical wife for doing something that Eve has done. In my eyes, she is the last person to even consider hurting others. And I don't buy that she died for decisions made by someone else. If she did some horrible things it would be (at least more) understandable if God wanted to punish her, but she was a way better human than any other living being in the neighborhood who still happens to be alive. It is not fair.

3. God loves us so much that he let's us choose paths which will hurt us? (see:drug addicts, alcoholics). He also let's us be seduced by the Devil and other evil entities surrounding us? He let our trust (which we all are born with) betray us? After all, we don't ever choose who to trust. We automatically draws conclusions based on what we know and have experienced.

4. I didn't ask for the results of other people's actions, but I am forced to live in the hypothetical shit that they have caused. As a result, my actions may also become "shitty" since I have been skewed by my environment. Again, this is not fair.

5. I suppose the question "Who do you owe?" was not the right question in that context. But rather: "Who would you say "Thank you" to?"

For instance, if someone fixed my roof I don't thank the creator of the hammer or nails. I thank the person who fixed my roof.

[...]

6. The only way of saving yourself is to say no to scientific knowledge (considering that you can't die and then respawn) and to trust a potentially skewed and biased source (the Bible, and all who claims/claimed to carry Jesus' message)? Surely, a God would not force us to say no to what basically is common sense for us to be saved? That's inhumane. He should give us more compelling evidence and then ask us whether we want to be saved by him or not. Otherwise our decision would be more affected by our surroundings.

7. I can see you are doing a great job :) I never would have thought you were not a convinced believer.

I understand that, but fact remains: God knew exactly who would go to hell and who would live through major pain throughout their lives before they existed. To me, creating them in the first place is cruel. I wouldn't adopt kittens if I knew I couldn't afford buying them food, or if I somehow (through divine powers) knew that they would not eat the food that I had to offer. In that case, it would be cruel to adopt them, as I see it.

People say that a lot but I don't buy it.

Why should we owe God for something we didn't ask for? God created us out of His own will from His decision. We never asked or requested to be created. Some people probably wish they weren't created. Why should we owe Him for Life if we didn't ask for life? Moreover, why should we owe Him for life if He forced us into life? We humans had no say in whether we wanted to be created or not. God just took it upon Himself and created us. And no, you can't just 'leave' life, once you're here, you're stuck here. You can't commit suicide, because He'll send you to Hell. Basically, He forces people into existence and tells them they should be thankful for it. And if they aren't, then there in for tremendous sorrow.

That's like having an annoying friend who keeps doing 'favors' for you even though you never asked for any. You keep telling him "No" "Stop" "Leave me alone" I don't want anything to do with you!" But no, he keeps coming, mowing your lawn, watering your grass, taking out your trash, cleaning your windows. You have no choice, no matter where you go, he follows you, and he just keeps "helping" you. You cannot stop his favors, you are forced to accept them. To make it worse, the friend then comes to you and demands that you pay him for his actions. Even though you never asked for his help, and even though you had no choice in the matter, he still thinks you somehow owes him. And if you don't pay what you 'owe,' he says he's going to punish you worse than you can imagine and longer than you could imagine. What type of twisted logic is that?

good question :)

1)you know I left god and I stopped praying because I thought that being gay and muslim does not work but this is completely wrong and only people with lack of knowledge think this! the fact of the matter is you can be gay as long as you do not act upon these feelings and be sexually with guys.having sex at all with the opposite sex that you are not married to is wrong as well! leaving god made my life worse than tbh. the life style is mentally destructive unless you have no feelings of course (this is my opinion of my life and what I have seen in other peoples lives).

2)after watching a couple of youtube videos about people converting to islam or people who love to do certain things in their lives stop doing these things to please god and in the end get rewarded. now if these people can do these things and they are not even arabs and do not have a muslim background can do this why can't I? I mean I have a muslim background but stopped because I did not accept gods conditions of me being gay! then I asked myself who the hell I was to say that what god says is wrong? he created me and therefore he tells me what is right and what is wrong!

3)being gay is not something I choose so I can't change it what I can do though is accept the challenge and doing so i will be obeying gods words and not have sex with other guys. and no I will not hook up with girls as that is wrong as well! if I ever feel that I am ready to get to know a girl then my parents are ready as they know I am gay and they have accepted my terms. also I consider what she will feel if I do not treat her well in bed for instance as she is a human as well and needs to be treated equally or I will be punished for it. so no do until/if ever become ready to take that step.

4)I have accepted the challenge and i feel a lot better and closer to god than i ever was before :) l7amdolilah

5)you speak of gods words as they are simple? remember that he created you and he can do whatever he wants with you!

sorry for the long post i just felt i had to explain a few things also i did not read through it again so mistakes might have been made :p

cheers!

1. No, it wasn't out of anger that he did it. It was to keep Adam and Eve from eating from the Tree of Life. Genesis 3:22 says And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Again, the reason for this is so that humanity does not live in eternal sin. 

You could say that it was punishment, I suppose, in the sense that Adam and Even did something they were told not to. They betrayed God's trust, in a way, because he gave them a perfect world; all they had to do was take care of it and not eat from the Tree of Knowledge. But as I said, he cast them out of the garden to give humanity a second chance. Adam and Eve are the ones who brought sin upon humanity, and God did what he did to save them from it.

2. It's not that she died because Eve was a sinner. Yes, Eve was the first one to sin, and it is from there (technically Satan, which is why he's called the father of lies) that all sin has originated in the world. Because of that, all of us are sinners. Humans are sinners, and imperfect beings. We can't ever be better in this life, because we have sin. And so that first death is when we go before God, and we are judged worthy or not worthy (do you or do you not accept Jesus' sacrifice to cleanse you of sin?) of eternal life. So this physical death is unavoidable. I'm not sure if that actually makes more sense or not.

And no matter how great your hypothetical wife was, she was still a sinner. The only person who was ever without sin was Jesus. So your wife was guilty just like we all are. I hate to say this as such an absolute statement, but I don't think it's possible for anyone not to be a sinner according to what's in the Bible. Not because it says so, but because the standards are so insanely high, and there's so much sin all around you (and the Bible does tell us that sin likes to spread...) that it's virtually impossible to stay away from.

3. God gave us free will. He wanted us to choose to love him. If you force someone to love you, then it's not really love. God wanted us to choose him. In order to do so, there had to be an option to choose something that was not God. Thus, the Tree of Knowledge. Every choice you make that is not condoned by the Bible is a choice against God. God loves us, but he won't force us to love him. He will let us do as we will with our lives, and he will hope that we find him. He many offer a bit of help, if you ask for it, but he won't force you to love him.

4. You're right. It's not fair. But it's not God who caused it. It's humanity that caused it. We just have to make do with the live we are given.

5. Ah. Well, I don't know that either are more important. Both are equally important, as you need the nails and hammer to fix the roof, but you also need the laborer who used those tools to fix the roof. In this case, the tool is something that can't be replaced with something else; you can't go down to the hardware store and buy a different love and happiness fertilizer tool. All of that comes from God. You may not thank him for it, but it does come from him.

6. Okay, I might lose you here; this is something that I have and still struggle with. I like science a lot, and I think that a lot of it is pretty darn accurate. But they are not mutually exclusive. You can have both Christianity and science. The most glaringly obvious (seeming) contradiction is evolution, in which species slowly evolve over time and new species eventually appear as a result. There are many ways that Christians deal with this, but the most reasonable explanation is the unexplained explosion of life. If evolution only occurs slowly, how did this massive explosion happen? And so if there was an explosion of life that just happened... that lines up fairly well with Genesis 1, in which God creates the many different species. Some Christians also say that God could have caused evolution... but that always bothered me for some reason.

If that's true though, Genesis 1 and 2 still seem to contradict each other. This is refuted by Christians, as Genesis 1 is sort of the grand overview, while Genesis 2 is meant to focus on humanity. I still have problems with this, but... I guess it makes sense. It still seems like the order should be consistent though. 

Another problem I still have is the currently accepted theory on how the moon was created. It doesn't seem to match up with Genesis 1. Genesis 1 has the moon showing up after plants had already started to appear on Earth, but this theory would have incinerated everything on the planet surface. The theory has plenty of holes though; there's no evidence that such an event happened... so I guess science can't answer this nearly as accurately as it can for other things, and we have this inconsistency that we can't really resolve until we understand this better.

The idea of a Creator isn't really anti science either. We know that the universe started with the Big Bang, but we don't know what happened before that. There are theories out there, like multiple universes, but... where did all of those come from? The idea of an intelligent creator isn't unreasonable, because anything about what happened before the Big Bang is probably just always going to be a theory. I'm not sure how you can prove or disprove any of them, because we can't "see" anything before the Big Bang.

Lastly, and this is something that a Christian asked me... do you really think that a God powerful enough to create the entire universe and everything in it wouldn't be able to write his own book the way he wanted it? That was a slap across the face to me. I suppose that I can't really refute that, and so the only thing I'm left with is to study the Bible itself and see if something in there is contradictory.

7. Thanks. I've been trying to put myself in the position of a Christian, because it helps a ton when you're trying to actually study the BIble and not just laugh at the whole thing. It at least helped me to take it seriously. This is something I've been trying to apply to all areas of life too; especially politics. It's a lot less frustrating when you can understand the other point of view.

Well, okay, let me phrase it this way. He created everything, including us, and so it is reasonable that God would want some recognition for his work. And in a sense, we do owe him everything, because we would have nothing and be nothing without him. You can say that some might wish they didn't exist, but they do, and what they have was created by God. That's not to say that God demands your gratitude for any of it, though he'd certainly appreciate it. 

The best response I can offer to the rest is probably one you won't like. We are made to be in a relationship with God. That depression that people feel; that desire to be dead, or to wish that you never existed... that's because you don't have God in your life. 

I know, I know. What kind of bullshit is that? Christians can be depressed too, right?

They certainly can be... but for whatever reason, Christians feel such peace believing in God, that they can get through it. They trust that God will help them to feel better. 

The biggest problem with this argument is that it's impossible to prove. What if this person believed and asked for help but didn't get it? What if this person believed and was still depressed all the time? What if this? What if that? 

The answer is no one but God actually knows. For what it's worth, I've seen Christianity do some incredible things to people... and the people who tend to be rotten (see: Crusades) are really not following the Bible at all.

1) No gay Muslim I've met actually believes that, it's well established that you can be gay and a Muslim even if you act upon the gay feelings, you are a sinner (one of the worst sins), not Kafer, that's ABC Islam here.

My experience was the exact opposite, I stuck to prayer and mosques, I didn't miss a prayer for 7 years. Waiting for the cure never worked, so I seeked professional medical help and I spent my savings on psychiatrists who just kept prescribing anti depressants (how professional). To cut a long story short, I startred reading , lots of reading, about Hadith (and the rules that Bokhari, Muslim followed writing their books) and started to realise how poorly these books are constructed and how fragile the whole logic behind these books is. Ofc being a very devouted Muslim back then I was in denial for sometime but when I snapped out of it I started questioning and reading, then more questioning and reading and in the end, I ended being a very happy proud gay man

So prohibiting yourself from basic human needs is ok while living a Gay lifestyle is mentally destructive? on what earth? You made your choice and you are happy about it, good for you, please don't spread such false images about the lifestyle of the homosexuals.

2) This shouldn't move you, I can share experiences of people who converted to christianity and being so happy about it , or to buddism, or to Sunni , or to Shee3a , etc. It literally means nothing.

3) You will never be ready to live with a girl the way you lived with boys. Come to Jordan, I'll introduce you to the 10000 scums that chose to marry  women just to secure their future and have kids that will take care of them when they are old and ugly, leading double lives, fooling themselves with "in allah gafoor raheem" while admitting that women will never fill that void. I admire your patience and the fact that you are not rushing into marriage just like every Muslim gay guy I met has done. I also admire your parents capacity and tolerance. I think some of the Sweden values have found their way to your family.

4) I used to think that all the time I spent reaching out to god was a total waste, my perpespective changed recently and I believe that this is god's answer to my prayers, accepting myself the way I am and focus my energy on what really matters. I stopped being bitter, I have achieved a lot in the last 2 years, and I was telling miz earlier that great things are coming my way soon. I started helping people, now I teach kids for free, and I plan to do more in the next 2 years. I have NEVER felt closer to god.

5) I don't believe in the same god you believe in. I like to think that my god doesn't care if I worship him in mosques , he cares more about what I actually do to help myself and people to live better. He cares if I am good guy or not, being gay doesn't make me a worse/better person.

Sorry of any of this sounded aggressive, just sharing experiences here, it may help you see things the way your experience may help me to see things.

Have a good day.