Hell there is a law that you can't kill unborn american bald eagles here in the U.S. But nothing for humans wow.
Hell there is a law that you can't kill unborn american bald eagles here in the U.S. But nothing for humans wow.
| segajon said: Hell there is a law that you can't kill unborn american bald eagles here in the U.S. But nothing for humans wow. |
Yes but thats for conservation reasons. Bald Eagles are rare, Humans are not.
"1. I've already addressed the points above. But they are important questions that people should think about. Why do some support allowing abortion in cases of rape and incest, as if that makes a child less a child? I don't see the logic in it."
Agreed, you should be for or against not in between.
"2. How do you decide that a fetus is human randomly at the halfway point in a pregnancy? That is a ridiculous statement. Not only have children been born before that point and survived, but what makes a fetus non-human one day and human the next? How do you even know what is halfway through a pregnancy since they aren't the same length?"
I believe that the currently agreed point at least where I live is 2 weeks before brain activity usually begins. The point at which a fetus becomes human is, in my view, the point where it begins to think. Thus abortions after this point are to me infanticide. Setting the limit at a couple of weeks before this usually occurs eliminates the risk that the fetus being aborted will have any brain activity.
"This kind of thinking is what most mystifies me about those who are pro-abortion (or at least pro-keeping-abortion-legal). It can lead easily to the conclusion that you are merely rationalizing the issue for convenience's sake, since it is completely illogical. Also, please explain to me how a fetus with its own genetic code, growing on its own, with its own body, beating heart and brain wave activity is not human but merely a "potential" person."
I could go on a tirade about how it appears that all anti-abortion people are doing is basing their views upon a religion and trying to force it upon others however that would be as pointless as your above rant.
The second part however is more reasonable and the reason is that until it starts to show signs of brain wave activity I do not believe that it should have human rights as to be considered a human being it needs to be sentient. Having its own genetic code does not make it alive, a dead body has its own genetic code.

Kasz216 said:
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I agree. Some people have a post birth abortion with their name on it. Perhaps we could backdate abortion? Call it administrative overhead.
Yes
| Declan said: @fkusumot Fair enough. But I still think that in order for me to actually be able to feel pain, I must also be able to think. That is, in order for what I feel to count as pain, I must have sufficient conscious to realise that I would prefer that what I am feeling would go away. So if I can feel I can think (to some basic level), therefore I am. |
Nope you are wrong. People who are infact brain dead feel pain. Or atleast they act that way when their organs are removed without painkillers. Which is why most hospitals use them.
The brain deads blood pressure shoots up and sometimes they move when cut into without pain killers.

Kasz216 said:
The brain deads blood pressure shoots up and sometimes they move when cut into without pain killers. |
That doesn't mean they actually feel the pain does it? Just their bodies natural reaction when their skin gets cut.

elprincipe said:
I don't understand why many pro-abortion folks make this argument. You may as well ask why would we make robbery illegal when, after all, people are still going to do it? Surely you don't believe that just because certain people are going to murder someone anyway we shouldn't make it illegal and do all we can to stop it. |
*rolls eyes, yes I'm implying that we just make robberies legal as well.. Come on, that is a different arguement entirely and you know it.. Abortion is not a "crime" no matter how you want to spin it.. it is a legal and legit procedure that is offered for situations that call for it. Like some people mentioned here, pro-lifers get tied up in their "moral" values and let it interfere with logic.
Making abortion illegal would just make matters worse because there would be no legal, well trained doctors performing the procedures and women would resort to unpleasent and far more dangerous methods by underground organizations that probably wouldn't be nearly as well trained to keep the procedure clean and safe. Would you really want this to happen? Because the way I see it, making abortions illegal would simply hurt the cause of you pro-lifers. We would be doing far more harm than good by making abortions illegal nationwide. And even the women that would shy away from underground methods would simply travel to another country to get it done. No matter how hard the pro lifers try, abortion is never going to go away, so we need to keep it legal, and therefore safe, clean, and highly regulated.
Like I said, I am not "pro abortion." I don't see abortion as a good thing by any means, only as something that may be a necessity. The important thing is that the woman has the choice of whether or not to do the moral thing, and I trust most women would, (and if they wouldn't, I'm sure they have a damn good reason). I'm not for killing babies and I'm sure nobody who's pro choice is.. I think that abortion should be used ONLY as a last resort, (mainly rape, or if the life of the child/ mother is threatened). The morallity of this issue should be looked at by the individual scenarios, not abortion as a whole. Pro-lifers see this as a black and white issue when it's not the case. The Government should never have the right to gain the power to have the say over what happens with a woman's body. End of story. For me, this is more of an anti-government intervention issue more than abortion issue.
Auron said:
Agreed, my circumstances are rape, mother's health in danger and child's health in danger. |
I agree totally.
segajon said:
If a person does not want the child the person should not have sex. Don't give me the lame excuse well the condom broke or the birth control didn't work. We all know those are not 100% effective at preventing a pregnancy and never will be. |
I also agree. I knew a lot of girls who were, quite honestly, whores at my high school, and when they got pregnant, they said they were going to get an abortion because they didn't know that having sex might make them pregnant. =P that irritated me beyond belief.
tombi123 said:
That doesn't mean they actually feel the pain does it? Just their bodies natural reaction when their skin gets cut. |
It doesn't react that way when you administer annestetics. The studys that say Fetus show pain use the same burden of proof that these scientists do when you remove the organs from a baby. They both "feel pain" despite in large part not having brainwaives or thinking ability. Basically when a needle or something hits it... it reacts. Just like a brain dead man reacts.
That's the point his definition of "pain" are reflex reactions. Which is what those brain dead people do... and it's what a fetus does.
So, basically by that definition not only could there not be abortions, you could not harvest organs from brain dead people.

Anyway, what really lies at the core of this debate are two main ideals; the first one being - is the fetus a part of the mother or is it its own entity? The second being - at what point does the developing fetus qualify as a "human being"?
And the answers to these questions will always differ depending on the individual's perspective, so it's really a pointless debate in the first place because it'll never really be settled. There is no absolute truth to answer either of these questions so the practice of abortion will continue to be debated until the end of time.. Debates that tie into one's "moral" views will never be settled because everybody has a different idea of morallity. There are no true absolutes in morallity.