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Forums - Nintendo - Paper Mario Sticker Star 3DS

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Soleron said:
F0X said:

There's a huge problem with making a new game with a different formula. Branding. It's almost always riskier to create a new IP than to apply a new concept to a familiar name, and shouldn't publishers try to minimize said risks? It's all about the money.

OK, true. So make it a spinoff. Super Paper Mario was pretty much branded as a spinoff and I'm OK with that. This new one is branded as main series and I am NOT happy with that because it implies we will never get a game like the original again.

Games are not funded because of art, but they sell because of it (as you said, it holds artistic value to the consumer). As such, it would be unwise to not invest in the artistic qualities of a game.

Invest in them up to the point on the curve it no longer makes sense to, yes.

Figuring out the desires of the consumer is not an exact science. What you describe is the process of finding what current fans possibly want (if you argue that fans have a hive mind). However, Nintendo is in the business of making games for as many consumers as they possibly can.

Indeed. However current fans also provide a safe market, which businesses always want. If they made another Paper Mario like the original, they could be very confident it would sell like the original. Why are they changing it on the mere promise that the changes will bring more customers? How could you say these changes are made for that purpose? All I see is some lead dev saying, "Wouldn't it be cool if XYZ?" and not thinking about markets at all.

As such, it is natural to try different approaches to see if results improve.

Yes. As spinoffs. It's worked many times in gaming history. But changing the definition of a franchise while branding it as core is pure betrayal, and Nintendo has to bear the negative sales impact and PR issue that comes with that. How is it worth it to piss off an established market?

In this case, one must ask the question why Nintendo wouldn't stick with the exact same formula as previous games. From what I see, Nintendo is attempting to move in that direction (it's certainly less of a departure than SPM) but continue to play with certain aspects. It's an attempt to find a better balance between what is expected from the franchise and bringing in newer consumers who like the sticker concept.

People buy games based on concepts? Any evidence for that? I thought people buy based on something the game does for them - an FPS because they want to shoot things, and RPG because they want to play through a story. Changing the window dressing doesn't persuade anyone who isn't already persuaded. And if it is new customers you are targeting, the Paper Mario branding does nothing for them.

Will it succeed? Only time will tell. If it doesn't, Nintendo has a few options: Give up and axe the franchise, go back to basics, or try another idea that seems appealing.

What they usually do: change something, it sells badly, blame (paraphrasing) "declining popularity of the series" (Metroid) or "customers not understanding what we want to deliver" (Wii Music) and never make a core entry again. It happened with 2D Mario, they just kept trying 3D Mario from N64 -> early Wii and when they finally made a 2D Mario again, turns out the demand had existed all along (insane NSMB sales).



Paper Mario is a spin-off of the Super Mario franchise (not to mention it being a sub-series of Mario RPG). At this point, the idea of needing further spin-off branding seems ridiculous to me. Besides, Sticker Star, unlike SPM, is in the same genre as previous games, so it doesn't necessarily need to be classified as a spin-off. Further, the emphasis on stickers is obvious in the title. But you may have a point here, if only because I like "Sticker Mario" as a title.

Doesn't make sense to whom? Some games have succeded by putting an immense amount of effort into artistry. BioShock and Half-Life are well-regarded as being shooters with wonderful stories. In fact, fans expect new entries of Bioshock to not take place in the same setting, or reuse characters. Only a small amount of defining gameplay attributes are wanted, and there's no objection when one is revamped.

Yes, current fans are a safe market. That's a huge reason why I, a current fan, am getting Sticker Star. I can't wait for more timing-based battling and brillant dialogue. All signs point to me being pleased. But I can imagine some not being so positive. There's always a contingient of fans who prefer a certain game in the series becuase something was changed or added in the next. All long-running franchises have this, no matter how similar each game is.

Unlike TTYD (which was under development as Paper Mario 2), Sticker Star (to my knowledge) hasn't been referred to as a main entry. Franchise spinoffs have often used the "Title: Subtitle" format in many cases, but I suppose Paper Mario is more ambiguous as no entry is labeled under the number system. Personally I think whether or not Sticker Star is a spinoff should be open to interpretation, especially since it's the first handheld entry. It may be the beginning of a new handheld subseries of Paper Mario for all we know, which I think would absolutely kill the notion of it being a "main entry".

Oh yes people buy games based on concepts. I could provide personal examples. Or examples of people I know who didn't buy a particular game based on what is expected of its genre. I didn't buy Scribblenauts because it was a puzzle game - I bought it because I could make God fight a T-Rex. I bought it based on what its individual, unique concept promised be. Sticker Star promises sticker-based battling and world interation. BioShock and Half-Life are arguably better known for their narratives than shooter gameplay. Pokemon is an RPG known better for its gameplay depth than depth of narrative (plus it's possibly the best example of how well a concept can sell a game). The Paper Mario branding doesn't have to impress newcomers, as it only exists to tie it to a familiar franchise. The name is there so players like yours truly will buy it. Besides, there is a the slightest chance that the "Mario" in the title could persuade a few buyers who associate that brand with quality. I wonder if Kirby's Epic Yarn would've broke a milltion sold without the Kirby name on it...

Companies make excuses. But behind the scenes, I'm confident that Nintendo is looking at what did or did not work for each release. Otherwise, their many popular franchises would've lost relevancy a long time ago.



3DS Friend Code: 0645 - 5827 - 5788
WayForward Kickstarter is best kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1236620800/shantae-half-genie-hero

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homer said:
Nem said:
homer said:
This looks to be the worst paper mario game of them all. NO LEVELING UP???WHAT IN THE WORLD??? It is a load of BS. I openly weep whenever I think about this game.


Means nothing. You dont have leveling in zelda either. Its the same principle. You will level up doing quests/tasks instead of just grinding battles for XP number.

With that said, PM Thousand year door looks more appealing to me.


So? Paper Mario isn't Zelda. Even the last entry had some form of leveling up. Also, from what others are saying, there are no partners? What is going on? This is madness. Intelligent systems is making major mistake after major mistake in this game. This game will be Nintendo's Socom 4. :(


It means, dont ditch it before you tried it.



F0X said:
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You have faith in Nintendo to deliver a product that you like. I have zero faith in this because Nintendo burned me with Other M, with Galaxy 2, with Twilight Princess, and with NSMB 2.

Ignoring global business decisions, I buy games for one and only one real reason: soundtrack. If it has a soundtrack like the first two I am buying, otherwise not.



Soleron said:
F0X said:
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You have faith in Nintendo to deliver a product that you like. I have zero faith in this because Nintendo burned me with Other M, with Galaxy 2, with Twilight Princess, and with NSMB 2.

Ignoring global business decisions, I buy games for one and only one real reason: soundtrack. If it has a soundtrack like the first two I am buying, otherwise not.

You'll be dissapointed if you're expecting a soundtrack like the first two games, as the composer has retired after TTYD's soundtrack was finished. She still directs sound at Intelligent Systems to some extent, but it will never be the same.

As for me, I have faith because my standards, tastes, and expectations are completely different. I could talk about them in great length, but they're not things that I can quantify in a few sentences. They're dynamic, changing, evolving, and indefinite. And I wouldn't like it any other way.



3DS Friend Code: 0645 - 5827 - 5788
WayForward Kickstarter is best kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1236620800/shantae-half-genie-hero

F0X said:
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You'll be dissapointed if you're expecting a soundtrack like the first two games, as the composer has retired after TTYD's soundtrack was finished. She still directs sound at Intelligent Systems to some extent, but it will never be the same.

I didn't know that. But I'm not expecting the same, I'm expecting quality that 20+ past Nintendo composers have been able to achieve. Yoshito Hirano is still around right?



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Soleron said:
F0X said:
...

You'll be dissapointed if you're expecting a soundtrack like the first two games, as the composer has retired after TTYD's soundtrack was finished. She still directs sound at Intelligent Systems to some extent, but it will never be the same.

I didn't know that. But I'm not expecting the same, I'm expecting quality that 20+ past Nintendo composers have been able to achieve. Yoshito Hirano is still around right?

I think so. Hirano composed the Advance Wars: Days of Run sountrack (good work), but I'm not sure of anything afterwards. I think Rei Kondoh did the soundtrack for the new Fire Emblem game. That explains why it's so awesome.



3DS Friend Code: 0645 - 5827 - 5788
WayForward Kickstarter is best kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1236620800/shantae-half-genie-hero

Soleron said:

You have faith in Nintendo to deliver a product that you like. I have zero faith in this because Nintendo burned me with Other M, with Galaxy 2, with Twilight Princess, and with NSMB 2.


Thats what it comes down to...do you have faith in nintendo? It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about the changes or how they affect the game because it really could go either way. Its up to nintendo to make these changes for the better and whether or not you believe in them will determine your opinion on this game. I believe in them (or more specifically Inteligent Systems). I guess you dont (albeit for mediocre reasons IMO) so i can see why you dont believe in these changes. We'll see when the game comes out whether or not the changes are for the better but until now, all this is is bickering about who is more bias



In response to the argument about whether or not people buy games based on concept. I'm planning on getting this game soley due to the sticker based combat. Just thought i'd throw that out there :).

(The fact that it's a Mario games helps, but it wasn't enough to convince me to try the other turn based games).



F0X said:
Soleron said:
F0X said:

You'll be dissapointed if you're expecting a soundtrack like the first two games, as the composer has retired after TTYD's soundtrack was finished. She still directs sound at Intelligent Systems to some extent, but it will never be the same.

I didn't know that. But I'm not expecting the same, I'm expecting quality that 20+ past Nintendo composers have been able to achieve. Yoshito Hirano is still around right?

I think so. Hirano composed the Advance Wars: Days of Run sountrack (good work), but I'm not sure of anything afterwards. I think Rei Kondoh did the soundtrack for the new Fire Emblem game. That explains why it's so awesome.

Wat?  Rei Kondoh from Capcom? 

And I believe you're talking about Yuka Tsujiyoko, who scored the bulk of Paper Mario.  Hirano was lead for TTYD.  I really want to know who's scoring SS though... 

Hirano is probably working on Wii U Fire Emblem...  *drooool*

Soriku said:

1. No partners. Has there even been a turn based RPG before without party members? I can't think of a single one. I think the sticker system might make partners essentially "useless" but I still don't like it.

This doesn't bother me too much.  We'll see how they handle it.  It is kinda weird not to have partners in a turned-based RPG but we'll see.

2. Non-cohesive overworld. I don't think we know enough to know how the world will work, exactly, but it seems like a step back. Going from one cohesive world to one that's split? I liked how in TTYD you would get new powers and go back to old areas and access new areas. That might still be present, but I liked the one connected world better.

This is the most worrying aspect of the game for me.  I'd much rather have a huge connected world with dungeons and what not as opposed to level based progression.  I hope this doesn't end up being too big of a deal.

3. The generic areas. Grass area, ice area, fire area, etc. Boring elemental areas. This game doesn't seem like it has any unique areas like in TTYD like the mafia/thug-infested town of Rogueport, the Boggly forest, the Glitz Pit, Twilight Town, the haunted island, the train, etc. Now, they might not be that bad. The desert area has a cool Yoshi sphinx and a Shy Guy mariachi band. But I still don't think the areas are as cool.

I'm not too worried about this personally.

The sticker system/no leveling up I'm open about because it seems like there'll be good incentives regardless, and previews say battles are good. However, I still would've liked them to incorporate the sticker system with EXP and partners. Partners would still do their thing, and maybe Mario would only be limited to stickers? Money is supposed to be a big factor for stickers and grinding for EXP and money seems better than no EXP at all...

I'm actually really excited about this.  Instead of being rewarded star points, it's like the more inquisitive gamers will reach the highest levels by exploring every nook and cranny.  I kinda like this, it's like Zelda... where only the most thorough players will uncover the most items, secrets, upgrades, heart pieces.  I think this will be a nice change of pace.

Also, this is kind of a different issue, but I doubt the soundtrack will be as good as TTYD. TTYD had such an awesome soundtrack; the best of any Mario game. SMG doesn't even compare IMO. Rawk Hawk battle theme, Rogueport theme, Shadow Queen battle themes, Doopliss theme, dragon battle theme, menu theme, X-Naut Fortress, Crump' battle theme, Bowser + Kammy's battle theme, Glitz Pit theme, etc. etc. But this isn't really a SS-only problem. TTYD just set a super high standard lol.

TTYD had a great soundtrack for sure.  Like I said above, I really want to know who's writing this score.  I wouldn't be surprised if it was Mitome and Sekigawa again.

Anyways, I think this game will turn out well and won't be the disappointment that Super Paper Mario was.

Also, my optimism could just stem from my being an Intelligent Systems whore.  I don't know yet.



Galaki said:
What Nintendo needs to do is to change the formula but not change the formula.

No! that would be just the same old hat with a new gimmick formula.