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Forums - Politics Discussion - Billionaires trying to buy our elections through the supreme court ruling, "corporations are people."

makingmusic476 said:
Kasz216 said:
makingmusic476 said:
Kasz216 said:
makingmusic476 said:
Kasz216 said:
makingmusic476 said:

 

 

I'm inclined to think the bolded is a case of politicians influencing their constituents, by using their political soap boxes to espouse the threats of other nations and whatnot. And then there was that story a couple of months back about the reporter that sat in on a meeting beetween a congressmen and a lobbyist, and the congressmen straight up said "how big of a check will you cut me if I vote for this?"  Googling generic terms like lobbyist and congressmen isn't turning any articles, however.

I can't help but feel that in many situations, a corporation influences a congressmen, who in turn influences their own constituents, and in others a corporation directly influences the voter.  And in many more the congressmen's simply voting on an issue their constituents probably won't care about or ever even hear about, and thus they know it won't really effect their chances for re-election either way, but it still negatively influences the voter.

Given your post in the Russian thread, I guess you'd feel that congressmen seemingly not voting in our best interests all goes back to our FPTP system?  That, while a lot of people may not support increased military spending, most people do, and that manifests itself in both major parties?  

I suppose that could partially cause the problems I'm talking about.  The major parties adopting a platform probably creates a sort of feedback loop where that then influences parts of the population to support such positions when they otherwise might not, simply because they are unaware of decent alternatives.  Thus if, for example, the Green party gained some significant presence on the national stage, we'd also see an increase in support for something like single-payer healthcare as Green politicians talk about its benefits in speeches, etc.

So following this line of thinking, in the end it would all boil down to what politicians are runnning, and the current limit on which politicians do well has to do with FPTP instead of corporate influence.


A) Your feel free to think this way, but it's simply not true.  If it was true we wouldn't be divided so regionally when it comes to politics.  The reasons Americans support the things they do is american culture.

For example, people in the US don't like government run healthcare, because they don't like healthcare rationing, which is a halmark of every government healthcare system.  It's how the prices stay down.

 

B) As for that congressman and lobbyiest article.  I'm guessing it came from a reporter or source who COMPLETELY MADE IT UP.

There is literally no other legitamite explination for such a conversation to go on, let alone infront of a news reporter... and if it did, they would of published said persons name and had a career making story.  The fact that you can't find it on the interenet more or less proves it's fake.

 

C)  Politicians don't always vote in the best interest of their consituents because we live in a democracy.  Congressmen more often then not adopt most of the stances of the people they represent.  75% of the time If people DON'T want to do something you'd see as better, it's simply because they don't want to do it.  Not because they're ignorant of other options or just aren't informed.   For the things you mentioned I could name a number of reasons the public thinks the costs outway the advantages.  I don't agree with them, but there are plenty of persuasive reasons.

 

They just have a different opinion on what they see as best.

Popularity follows position changes, not vice versa... whenever public policy shifts, so to will politician positions... no the other way around.

Though often times public sentiment makes it seem otherwise.

The rest of that time is generally just issues the general populace doesn't care that much about one way or another or in general deal making.  You need to vote for things important to other senators to get your stuff passed.



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sethnintendo said:

I could just see the outcry on that.  I believe the NAACP would compare it to Jim Crow laws even if it was a test that a 12th grader should be able to pass. If you can't solve basic math, science, English, etc questions then you probably don't need to be voting.  How about if you failed on obtaining a GED then you can't vote.  If you can't vote if you committed a felony then you shouldn't be able to vote if you are completely stupid.

I think they should at least take the party line voting out of the electronic machines (where you can just select vote for all Republicans or Democrats).  That is USA laziness at its best and shows how most people vote (look into the actual candidates).  Sure it wouldn't stop the pure party line voting but at least you'll make the person click on every single vote.  A national holiday on election day which most democracies have would probably improve voter turn out. 

Yeah, of course they would. If they think it's racist to need a government ID to participate in a government election, there's no way they'd stand for anything like what I proposed.

I don't think I've seen a mechanism that lets you just pick to vote a straight ticket like that, but if you mean that the ballot should not indicate what party a candidate represents, I've been in favor of that for a long time.



badgenome said:

Yeah, of course they would. If they think it's racist to need a government ID to participate in a government election, there's no way they'd stand for anything like what I proposed.

I don't think I've seen a mechanism that lets you just pick to vote a straight ticket like that, but if you mean that the ballot should not indicate what party a candidate represents, I've been in favor of that for a long time.

On the electric voting machines that I used I believe there was an option at the top to just be able to vote for an individual party.  Removing the party name would probably confuse the hell out of most voters.  They wouldn't know what to do!



makingmusic476 said:
Allfreedom99 said:
Kasz216 said

.

Kasz, I have some thoughts about this, but I was just curious as to your reasoning of this conclusion?

Have you been keeping track of polls in swing states and the electoral map?

The current situation would require Mitt Romney to win almost every swing state to get 270 EVs, but Obama's up in most.  Prior to Wisconsin becoming a proper swing state with the Ryan pick (before it was consistently up 6+ points for Obama), Obama had to only win a single swing state to take the election.

Based on current poll aggregates, I'd say this is the most likely electoral map, leaving Wisconsin and Florida as toss-ups until further data comes in:

http://www.270towin.com/2012_election_predictions.php?mapid=sAc

Prior to the Ryan pick, I would've put Wisconsin for Obama and still left Florida up for grabs.

But the point is, even if Romney takes both Wisconsin and Florida, he still only has 244 votes.  

So let's say these are the total states (real swing states, not "swing" states like Pennsylvania):

Ohio
Iowa
Virginia
North Carolina
Colorado
Wisconsin 
Florida

If Romney takes them all but Florida, he still loses.  If he takes them all but Ohio, he barely wins.  Obama just has to take any two of those (three if one of those is Iowa) to win.  And Ohio has been leaning pretty heavily for Obama, with Iowa, Virginia, and Colorado all also favoring Obama:

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/author/nate-silver/

Demographics are really fucking up the Republican path to 270.  Ten years ago Pennsylvania was an actual swing state, and states like Virginia and North Carolina were solid red.   Because of increasing urbanization both Virginia and North Carolina are now winnable by Democrats, and former swing states like Nevada, Colorado, and New Mexico are becoming more and more blue due to the increase in Latino voters.  New Mexico is no longer a swing state, and it's arguable the same has happened to Nevada (they don't get polled all that often).  It won't be long before Colorado isn't a swing state and Arizona goes from red to purple.

I'd imagine Texas will be pretty purple in the next 10-15 years as well, barring a major (and seemingly necessary) shift in Republican politics.


Kept meaning to reply to this and forgot, but yeah that sums it up pretty well.  That and I think Romney just doesn't have a few critical things he needs to beat Obama... like a personality.

Well group personality anyway.  Apparently he's really personable in 1 on 1 situations... but his group and speech talking leaves a lot to be desired.



Kasz216 said:


A) Your feel free to think this way, but it's simply not true.  If it was true we wouldn't be divided so regionally when it comes to politics.  The reasons Americans support the things they do is american culture.

For example, people in the US don't like government run healthcare, because they don't like healthcare rationing, which is a halmark of every government healthcare system.  It's how the prices stay down.

 

B) As for that congressman and lobbyiest article.  I'm guessing it came from a reporter or source who COMPLETELY MADE IT UP.

There is literally no other legitamite explination for such a conversation to go on, let alone infront of a news reporter... and if it did, they would of published said persons name and had a career making story.  The fact that you can't find it on the interenet more or less proves it's fake.

 

C)  Politicians don't always vote in the best interest of their consituents because we live in a democracy.  Congressmen more often then not adopt most of the stances of the people they represent.  75% of the time If people DON'T want to do something you'd see as better, it's simply because they don't want to do it.  Not because they're ignorant of other options or just aren't informed.   For the things you mentioned I could name a number of reasons the public thinks the costs outway the advantages.  I don't agree with them, but there are plenty of persuasive reasons.

 

They just have a different opinion on what they see as best.

Popularity follows position changes, not vice versa... whenever public policy shifts, so to will politician positions... no the other way around.

Though often times public sentiment makes it seem otherwise.

The rest of that time is generally just issues the general populace doesn't care that much about one way or another or in general deal making.  You need to vote for things important to other senators to get your stuff passed.

I'll have to try and find that article.  If anything, I'm probably misremembering the details of what happened, because I'm pretty skeptical of anything too shocking I find on the internet, giving the amount of BS that goes around about both sides, so the article itself should be legitimate, even if my recounting of it is not.

And I think that skepticism I have towards information abotu both sides ties into why I'm so unwililngly to accept what you're saying here.  Based on my own political evolution, and that of a number of my friends, as well as the political rigidity of peopel like my dad, I can't help but feel that the influence of larger media and political talking points is being undersold here.  My politics were starkly different four years ago than they are now as was the politics of many of my friends, but we all had a gradual shift as we began to learn that much of what we told by single-party affiliated media conglomerates was made up, disingenious, taken out of context, bullshit.  We all become much more skeptical of what we were hearing from various sources as we learned much of it simply wasn't true.

People like my father are still trapped all up in it, believing simultaneously, for example, that Obama is a godless socialist out to sell us out to the Soviet Union (which doesn't even exist!) and that Obama is a closeted Muslim intending to implement Sharia law.  When I explain to him the logic behind right wing and left wing ideals, he tends to lean left, but when I ask him who he's voting for, it all goes back to "getting that bastard out of office!"  And then look at all the fearmongering about Obama planning to take away our guns or Obama doing everything he can to prevent drilling, neither of which are backed up by reality.

I guess anecdotes are just anecdotes, but the idea that political parties and corporations don't have a significant sway over their constituents directly contrasts much of what I've experienced in life.  And it would make the entire prospect of negative political campaigning pointless.



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badgenome said:
sethnintendo said:

I could just see the outcry on that.  I believe the NAACP would compare it to Jim Crow laws even if it was a test that a 12th grader should be able to pass. If you can't solve basic math, science, English, etc questions then you probably don't need to be voting.  How about if you failed on obtaining a GED then you can't vote.  If you can't vote if you committed a felony then you shouldn't be able to vote if you are completely stupid.

I think they should at least take the party line voting out of the electronic machines (where you can just select vote for all Republicans or Democrats).  That is USA laziness at its best and shows how most people vote (look into the actual candidates).  Sure it wouldn't stop the pure party line voting but at least you'll make the person click on every single vote.  A national holiday on election day which most democracies have would probably improve voter turn out. 

Yeah, of course they would. If they think it's racist to need a government ID to participate in a government election, there's no way they'd stand for anything like what I proposed.

I don't think I've seen a mechanism that lets you just pick to vote a straight ticket like that, but if you mean that the ballot should not indicate what party a candidate represents, I've been in favor of that for a long time.

It's not racist, it's classist. It's a fairly open and shut case, even if state courts seem to be supporting it.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
badgenome said:
sethnintendo said:

I could just see the outcry on that.  I believe the NAACP would compare it to Jim Crow laws even if it was a test that a 12th grader should be able to pass. If you can't solve basic math, science, English, etc questions then you probably don't need to be voting.  How about if you failed on obtaining a GED then you can't vote.  If you can't vote if you committed a felony then you shouldn't be able to vote if you are completely stupid.

I think they should at least take the party line voting out of the electronic machines (where you can just select vote for all Republicans or Democrats).  That is USA laziness at its best and shows how most people vote (look into the actual candidates).  Sure it wouldn't stop the pure party line voting but at least you'll make the person click on every single vote.  A national holiday on election day which most democracies have would probably improve voter turn out. 

Yeah, of course they would. If they think it's racist to need a government ID to participate in a government election, there's no way they'd stand for anything like what I proposed.

I don't think I've seen a mechanism that lets you just pick to vote a straight ticket like that, but if you mean that the ballot should not indicate what party a candidate represents, I've been in favor of that for a long time.

It's not racist, it's classist. It's a fairly open and shut case, even if state courts seem to be supporting it.

I think it's a mix of both.  But the intent is not racist.  Just the means is racist.  IE, it's not "let's prevent  _____ from voting because they're _____"  It's "let's prevent  _____ from voting because they tend to vote Democrat".  It's all about party affiliation, with race/class merely being the common identifier.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/08/19/fight-over-poll-hours-isnt-just-political.html 

I guess I really actually feel we shouldn’t contort the voting process to accommodate the urban — read African-American — voter-turnout machine,” said Doug Preisse, chairman of the county Republican Party and elections board member who voted against weekend hours, in an email to The Dispatch. “Let’s be fair and reasonable.”



Just looked at that electoral map, why is it that without any states changing hands this election is swung 14 votes toward republicans?



theprof00 said:
Just looked at that electoral map, why is it that without any states changing hands this election is swung 14 votes toward republicans?


Nate Silver's map?  Can you be more specific about this 14 point swing?  The Now-cast vs. the Nov. 6th forecast?

He uses a pretty complex algorithmic model that weights the various pollsters differently, and calculates the likelihood of each state going for each candidate and  the likely average of EVs they'll get come Nov. 6th.  The Nov. 6th and current forecasts differ based on expected changes in the run up to the election, like the VP bump disappating, changes to the economy, and so on.

Nate Silver was one of the more accurate poll aggregators back in 2008 and 2010, predicting Obama's landslide and the Tea Party's landslide when most weren't expecting election results to be quite so drastic in either direction.

But only trust his numbers.  His "gut feelings" can be wildly off the mark.



Mr Khan said:

It's not racist, it's classist. It's a fairly open and shut case, even if state courts seem to be supporting it.

What is the argument against it, exactly? I have not heard a single one put forth that sounds even remotely convincing. Just, "Blah blah blah disproportionately affected."