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Forums - Politics Discussion - Time for gun law reforms in the USA?

the2real4mafol said:

i may have north korea's kim il sung as my avatar but that don't mean i want to live there, i'm happy in Britain. i'm a socialist NOT a communist (like America thinks, they are not the same thing). I believe that the greed of a few shouldn't affect the rest of us, it wasn't our fault they fucked up, is it? of course, it does anyway. Government should be there to help the neediest and offer basic services like healthcare and a good education, they definitely SHOULD not repress their people, that's what i hated about North korea and the former USSR. Capitalism is all good when everything goes well and everyone lives a decent lifestyle and has a job, but since the recession 5 years ago, so many people have lost what they had, it's just not right, it leads to higher crime and higher suicide, because money is everything. Your right, capitalism isn't bad but its not perfect either, as the few lucky people to make up to the top, fucked it because they got greedy. I mean to show how capitalism is flawed, lets compare figures, the US (a developed economy) poverty line is 15.7% of the population, with China (a developing economy) at 13.4%. Surely something is wrong there, the USA should have less poverty shouldn't it, if the American lifestyle is so much better than the Chinese

The problem is that you have to give the state power in order to "help" people, those that hold this power eventually become corrupt, and then this power is used or sold to benefit the individuals who hold the power ... This means that the more socialist a nation becomes the more it will turn into a communist or corporatist state.

Corporatism, not capitalism, was the cause of the economic crisis; adding more power to a government that is already a corporatist state will only result in large corporations having more power at the expense of individuals.



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HappySqurriel said:
chapset said:
HappySqurriel said:
chapset said:

...

good day

Your statistics demonstrated that they were purchased legally by a straw purchaser, purchased illegally by a criminal, and used in a crime ... None of the guns were purchased legally to be used in a crime.

The problem isn't that these guns are available for sale legally, the problem is that they are for sale illegally.

Edit: To use an analogy ...

Several years ago it was common (locally anyways) for criminals to steal trucks to crash them through the walls of pharmacies to steal narcotics. Would you argue that the problem was with the availability of trucks, how easy it was for these trucks to be stolen, or with criminals having motive to steal narcotics from pharmacies?

criminals send their relative, friends or whatever to buy their guns for them if you make it harder for the average guy to buy a gun you then make it harder for criminals to get guns is that so hard to see, so the point of baning guns mean only criminals will have gun doesn't make sense since they get their guns initialy from law abiding citizens.

The problem in the US is that they have way to many guns, which lead to waste, by waste a mean a lot of guns are not accounted for and are easly obtained by criminals if you cut the number of guns you cut the availibity to citizens and to criminals which lead to less gun crimes.

Suppose you're lucky enough to ban the legal sale and manufacture of these weapons, how will that prevent criminals from getting their hands on them in a world where you can print guns?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/07/28/the-end-of-gun-control/

make the cartrige more expensive then the printer??



Bet reminder: I bet with Tboned51 that Splatoon won't reach the 1 million shipped mark by the end of 2015. I win if he loses and I lose if I lost.

chapset said:
HappySqurriel said:
chapset said:
HappySqurriel said:
chapset said:

...

good day

Your statistics demonstrated that they were purchased legally by a straw purchaser, purchased illegally by a criminal, and used in a crime ... None of the guns were purchased legally to be used in a crime.

The problem isn't that these guns are available for sale legally, the problem is that they are for sale illegally.

Edit: To use an analogy ...

Several years ago it was common (locally anyways) for criminals to steal trucks to crash them through the walls of pharmacies to steal narcotics. Would you argue that the problem was with the availability of trucks, how easy it was for these trucks to be stolen, or with criminals having motive to steal narcotics from pharmacies?

criminals send their relative, friends or whatever to buy their guns for them if you make it harder for the average guy to buy a gun you then make it harder for criminals to get guns is that so hard to see, so the point of baning guns mean only criminals will have gun doesn't make sense since they get their guns initialy from law abiding citizens.

The problem in the US is that they have way to many guns, which lead to waste, by waste a mean a lot of guns are not accounted for and are easly obtained by criminals if you cut the number of guns you cut the availibity to citizens and to criminals which lead to less gun crimes.

Suppose you're lucky enough to ban the legal sale and manufacture of these weapons, how will that prevent criminals from getting their hands on them in a world where you can print guns?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/07/28/the-end-of-gun-control/

make the cartrige more expensive then the printer??

What a great way to encourage the next wave of manufacturing (micro manufacturing) in your economy ... Punish the 99.9% of legitimate uses of a technology with punitive taxes that will (likely) make their work not cost effective to prevent the 0.01% illegitimate uses. With thinking like this it is no wonder that the US economy hasn't produced a reasonable number of good jobs in decades.

Edit: I just realized you may have ment the bullet rather than the material cartridge of the printer ... but anyone who knows anything about guns knows that it is (already) pretty easy to make a bullet.



HappySqurriel said:
the2real4mafol said:

i may have north korea's kim il sung as my avatar but that don't mean i want to live there, i'm happy in Britain. i'm a socialist NOT a communist (like America thinks, they are not the same thing). I believe that the greed of a few shouldn't affect the rest of us, it wasn't our fault they fucked up, is it? of course, it does anyway. Government should be there to help the neediest and offer basic services like healthcare and a good education, they definitely SHOULD not repress their people, that's what i hated about North korea and the former USSR. Capitalism is all good when everything goes well and everyone lives a decent lifestyle and has a job, but since the recession 5 years ago, so many people have lost what they had, it's just not right, it leads to higher crime and higher suicide, because money is everything. Your right, capitalism isn't bad but its not perfect either, as the few lucky people to make up to the top, fucked it because they got greedy. I mean to show how capitalism is flawed, lets compare figures, the US (a developed economy) poverty line is 15.7% of the population, with China (a developing economy) at 13.4%. Surely something is wrong there, the USA should have less poverty shouldn't it, if the American lifestyle is so much better than the Chinese

The problem is that you have to give the state power in order to "help" people, those that hold this power eventually become corrupt, and then this power is used or sold to benefit the individuals who hold the power ... This means that the more socialist a nation becomes the more it will turn into a communist or corporatist state.

Corporatism, not capitalism, was the cause of the economic crisis; adding more power to a government that is already a corporatist state will only result in large corporations having more power at the expense of individuals.

America's government is supposedly minimal and they, like the greed and power of money over the last 60 years has corrupted them, since both parties are the same anyway. While, in Europe that never happened, as the parties were distinquishable . The UK had several socialist Labour government and didn't corrupt, forming the NHS didn't corrupt us, nor did the other stuff Clement Atlee did. Governments gain power from the time they serve, not anything to do with socialism. we'll see how France ends up in 2017, when they hold a new election, we'll see if socialism helped sort out there problems. Socialism is about EQUALITY above anything, the government may be bigger, but it's to regulate not control



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HappySqurriel said:
chapset said:
HappySqurriel said:
chapset said:

...

good day

Your statistics demonstrated that they were purchased legally by a straw purchaser, purchased illegally by a criminal, and used in a crime ... None of the guns were purchased legally to be used in a crime.

The problem isn't that these guns are available for sale legally, the problem is that they are for sale illegally.

Edit: To use an analogy ...

Several years ago it was common (locally anyways) for criminals to steal trucks to crash them through the walls of pharmacies to steal narcotics. Would you argue that the problem was with the availability of trucks, how easy it was for these trucks to be stolen, or with criminals having motive to steal narcotics from pharmacies?

criminals send their relative, friends or whatever to buy their guns for them if you make it harder for the average guy to buy a gun you then make it harder for criminals to get guns is that so hard to see, so the point of baning guns mean only criminals will have gun doesn't make sense since they get their guns initialy from law abiding citizens.

The problem in the US is that they have way to many guns, which lead to waste, by waste a mean a lot of guns are not accounted for and are easly obtained by criminals if you cut the number of guns you cut the availibity to citizens and to criminals which lead to less gun crimes.

Suppose you're lucky enough to ban the legal sale and manufacture of these weapons, how will that prevent criminals from getting their hands on them in a world where you can print guns?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/07/28/the-end-of-gun-control/

Just like how the copy machine was supposed to be the end of paper currency. You have manufacturers program in an inability to make firearms or firearm components into these 3D printers.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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Mr Khan said:
Viper1 said:
If demand exists and you remove a legal market, you create a black market. This is economics 101.

Banning them won't stop them.

But the ban raises prices, often exponentially over production costs or market value, and that alone creates severe impediments.

I assume, then, that you support the War on Drugs, which seeks the same kind of advantages towards banning a particular product, right?



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Mr Khan said:
HappySqurriel said:
chapset said:
HappySqurriel said:
chapset said:

...

good day

Your statistics demonstrated that they were purchased legally by a straw purchaser, purchased illegally by a criminal, and used in a crime ... None of the guns were purchased legally to be used in a crime.

The problem isn't that these guns are available for sale legally, the problem is that they are for sale illegally.

Edit: To use an analogy ...

Several years ago it was common (locally anyways) for criminals to steal trucks to crash them through the walls of pharmacies to steal narcotics. Would you argue that the problem was with the availability of trucks, how easy it was for these trucks to be stolen, or with criminals having motive to steal narcotics from pharmacies?

criminals send their relative, friends or whatever to buy their guns for them if you make it harder for the average guy to buy a gun you then make it harder for criminals to get guns is that so hard to see, so the point of baning guns mean only criminals will have gun doesn't make sense since they get their guns initialy from law abiding citizens.

The problem in the US is that they have way to many guns, which lead to waste, by waste a mean a lot of guns are not accounted for and are easly obtained by criminals if you cut the number of guns you cut the availibity to citizens and to criminals which lead to less gun crimes.

Suppose you're lucky enough to ban the legal sale and manufacture of these weapons, how will that prevent criminals from getting their hands on them in a world where you can print guns?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/07/28/the-end-of-gun-control/

Just like how the copy machine was supposed to be the end of paper currency. You have manufacturers program in an inability to make firearms or firearm components into these 3D printers.

That's not really going to work.

Printers can't make good counterfit money because of the built in things in money.  Not the printers used to make them.

Trying to program 3D printers to not print firearms seems.

A) Impossibe, how would that even work?  It's not like there are things intrinisic to guns that can be recognized.

B) Last about as long as the Iphone firmware lasted.



mrstickball said:
Mr Khan said:
Viper1 said:
If demand exists and you remove a legal market, you create a black market. This is economics 101.

Banning them won't stop them.

But the ban raises prices, often exponentially over production costs or market value, and that alone creates severe impediments.

I assume, then, that you support the War on Drugs, which seeks the same kind of advantages towards banning a particular product, right?

Certain drugs, yes. Crack and Heroin, for two, are quite dangerous. I just don't see the need to list certain ones as Schedule I.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

the2real4mafol said:
chapset said:
Lyrikalstylez said:
check out how great it has been over here in chicago since guns have been bann'd, only 500+ murders a year :-|

if anything this shows more people need to carry weapons

gun laws don't work in Chicago because you can go to the next state or even city and buy your weapons legally to do your dirt, just like the mexican Cartels come to the US to buy their weapons.

yeah if that applied nationwide, it would probably drop to 50 murders or less a year


Funny, when the UK banned handguns, murder rates didn't go down:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm - Handgun crime up, despite ban.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html - Gun crime up 89% over a decade.

It is true that crime has decreased a little over the past couple of years... you'd be twisting it a bit to suggest this had anything to do with the ban. Especially when many of the years before the decrease (that is, over the next 10 years after the ban) crime levels were at the highest levels ever recorded.

Also, just look at the USA. Look at the states and cities which have fantastic gun rights, and compare them to those that have gun bans.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
I disagree. Every citizen should have equal rights to be randomly killed by maniacs.

Seriously though, in my opinion guns should be banned altogether. Less people would die that way (I believe. Feel free to prove me wrong here), and I don't give a fuck about some ancient old 'rights'. Sure, removing guns from people (at the exchange of currency) would not be a simple task, but isn't it worth it even if only one single person is saved as a result?

But yeah, I don't live in America so obviously my opinion doesn't really matter. It's their country, not mine.

People can still kill people without guns.

And many, many people would be mad if guns were banned. That means the Government has more control over them, that they can't "protect" themselves.