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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Sex and the Zero Suit: Why Samus was Great Only in Metroid Prime

Khuutra said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:

tl;dr, but the little I read of that rant article made me think "Malstrom meets political correctness nut jobs".   

Saying that Samus is best when she's essentially genderless, and voiceless, is political correctness? How?

Yep, it's political correctness taken to extreme and absurd consequences. Think about those stupid and liberticide schools that forbid pupils to use the words "mom" and "dad" and force them to just use the neuter "parents".



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


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Alby_da_Wolf said:
Khuutra said:

Saying that Samus is best when she's essentially genderless, and voiceless, is political correctness? How?

Yep, it's political correctness taken to extreme and absurd consequences. Think about those stupid and liberticide schools that forbid pupils to use the words "mom" and "dad" and force them to just use the neuter "parents".

You have failed to say how.



He's equating your attempts to gender-neutralize Samus with the broader movement to gender-neutralize society. Simply saying that she's better gender-neutral is an attempt at being politically correct, ignoring your argument altogether



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

I'm getting my gun

 

(it is a word gun; it shoots words)



Mr Khan said:
He's equating your attempts to gender-neutralize Samus with the broader movement to gender-neutralize society. Simply saying that she's better gender-neutral is an attempt at being politically correct, ignoring your argument altogether

Yes, basically this.

By the way, voiceless is not the problem, it can be even better if voice acting isn't good enough, but even if it's good, spoken dialogues must have a good reason to be there (for example in Thief listening to them is a way to collect clues), we don't play games to listen to their characters blathering. And I don't even accuse genderless characters if they just came out that way for whatever other reason, but without the devs making them that way for political correctness purpose. But political correctness, be it by design, or applied by the gamer as a posteriori interpretation to justify the choice, just kills the fun.
And sex appeal of the PC can be built in the game on purpose without ruining it, if it's well blended in it, just think about Tomb Raider, Lara was one of the first sexy videogame women to reach WW success, but she was loved by both male and female gamers.
If voice and sex appeal don't work in the latest Samus, it's not because they are bad per se, but just because they aren't realised and blended well in the game.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


Around the Network
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Mr Khan said:
He's equating your attempts to gender-neutralize Samus with the broader movement to gender-neutralize society. Simply saying that she's better gender-neutral is an attempt at being politically correct, ignoring your argument altogether

Yes, basically this.

By the way, voiceless is not the problem, it can be even better if voice acting isn't good enough, but even if it's good, spoken dialogues must have a good reason to be there (for example in Thief listening to them is a way to collect clues), we don't play games to listen to their characters blathering. And I don't even accuse genderless characters if they just came out that way for whatever other reason, but without the devs making them that way for political correctness purpose. But political correctness, be it by design, or applied by the gamer as a posteriori interpretation to justify the choice, just kills the fun.
And sex appeal of the PC can be built in the game on purpose without ruining it, if it's well blended in it, just think about Tomb Raider, Lara was one of the first sexy videogame women to reach WW success, but she was loved by both male and female gamers.
If voice and sex appeal don't work in the latest Samus, it's not because they are bad per se, but just because they aren't realised and blended well in the game.

We're not having this conversation until you actually read the first post.



Khuutra said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Mr Khan said:
He's equating your attempts to gender-neutralize Samus with the broader movement to gender-neutralize society. Simply saying that she's better gender-neutral is an attempt at being politically correct, ignoring your argument altogether

Yes, basically this.

By the way, voiceless is not the problem, it can be even better if voice acting isn't good enough, but even if it's good, spoken dialogues must have a good reason to be there (for example in Thief listening to them is a way to collect clues), we don't play games to listen to their characters blathering. And I don't even accuse genderless characters if they just came out that way for whatever other reason, but without the devs making them that way for political correctness purpose. But political correctness, be it by design, or applied by the gamer as a posteriori interpretation to justify the choice, just kills the fun.
And sex appeal of the PC can be built in the game on purpose without ruining it, if it's well blended in it, just think about Tomb Raider, Lara was one of the first sexy videogame women to reach WW success, but she was loved by both male and female gamers.
If voice and sex appeal don't work in the latest Samus, it's not because they are bad per se, but just because they aren't realised and blended well in the game.

We're not having this conversation until you actually read the first post.

Never!  j/k

After reading it, I stand by what I wrote: the problems about those aspects of Samus aren't that due to them female gamers are pissed off for a violation of political correctness, but because those aspects are badly designed and, as the article this time correctly says, just glued on the game as a cheap trick to attract males. This, more than by violating political correctness, is bad because it just insults the intelligence of gamers, and, again correctly said in the article, prevents female gamers from identifying with the PC. Sex appeal can be used in a much better way, but the sexy woman must be an active subject, not an object. My feeling is that dragging the argument into political correctness field, things get worse, because political correctness just makes the alternative to gratuitous, cheap sexy bits, boring. So basically the article is right (besides being a long rant), but I don't agree with one of the arguments it uses to justify its thesis, and I believe there is a better one available in its place.

PS The original Duke Nukem 3D, btw, proves that even cheap, gratuitous, objectified sexy women can have a place in an excellent game, if they are so much over-the-top to become ironic.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


Alby_da_Wolf said:
Khuutra said:

We're not having this conversation until you actually read the first post.

Never!  j/k

After reading it, I stand by what I wrote: the problems about those aspects of Samus aren't that due to them female gamers are pissed off for a violation of political correctness, but because those aspects are badly designed and, as the article this time correctly says, just glued on the game as a cheap trick to attract males. This, more than by violating political correctness, is bad because it just insults the intelligence of gamers, and, again correctly said in the article, prevents female gamers from identifying with the PC. Sex appeal can be used in a much better way, but the sexy woman must be an active subject, not an object. My feeling is that dragging the argument into political correctness field, things get worse, because political correctness just makes the alternative to gratuitous, cheap sexy bits, boring. So basically the article is right (besides being a long rant), but I don't agree with one of the arguments it uses to justify its thesis, and I believe there is a better one available in its place.

PS The original Duke Nukem 3D, btw, proves that even cheap, gratuitous, objectified sexy women can have a place in an excellent game, if they are so much over-the-top to become ironic.

Okay. Now that you've read it.

What part of my argument qualifies as "political correctness"?



Khuutra said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Khuutra said:

We're not having this conversation until you actually read the first post.

Never!  j/k

After reading it, I stand by what I wrote: the problems about those aspects of Samus aren't that due to them female gamers are pissed off for a violation of political correctness, but because those aspects are badly designed and, as the article this time correctly says, just glued on the game as a cheap trick to attract males. This, more than by violating political correctness, is bad because it just insults the intelligence of gamers, and, again correctly said in the article, prevents female gamers from identifying with the PC. Sex appeal can be used in a much better way, but the sexy woman must be an active subject, not an object. My feeling is that dragging the argument into political correctness field, things get worse, because political correctness just makes the alternative to gratuitous, cheap sexy bits, boring. So basically the article is right (besides being a long rant), but I don't agree with one of the arguments it uses to justify its thesis, and I believe there is a better one available in its place.

PS The original Duke Nukem 3D, btw, proves that even cheap, gratuitous, objectified sexy women can have a place in an excellent game, if they are so much over-the-top to become ironic.

Okay. Now that you've read it.

What part of my argument qualifies as "political correctness"?

Proposing that the solution SHOULD, not COULD be making her more neuter. My point is that actually she could be sexy if it isn't gratuitous, it's well blended in the game and justified by the circumstances, she remains a strong character and doesn't become a sex object, etc., just like Lara Croft.  BTW, thinking again about it, I don't find the latest Samus so sexy, despite her appearance meant to be so, but this could still be seen as a badly executed design, that contributes to just attract simple-minded males and prevent woman from identifying with her, spoiling their gameplay. One last bit about the silliness of eccessive political correctness: if a third person game's male PC is designed with a nice ass, many female gamers (and gaymers too) will definitely watch it, so let's stop altogether just scolding straight male gamers for this natural behaviour, and let just mock them if they pay and play a bad game just for some digital asses and boobs. Again, the commandment for devs and designers shouldn't be "don't do it", but "if you really want to do it, do it well".



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


Alby_da_Wolf said:
Khuutra said:

Okay. Now that you've read it.

What part of my argument qualifies as "political correctness"?

Proposing that the solution SHOULD, not COULD be making her more neuter. My point is that actually she could be sexy if it isn't gratuitous, it's well blended in the game and justified by the circumstances, she remains a strong character and doesn't become a sex object, etc., just like Lara Croft.  BTW, thinking again about it, I don't find the latest Samus so sexy, despite her appearance meant to be so, but this could still be seen as a badly executed design, that contributes to just attract simple-minded males and prevent woman from identifying with her, spoiling their gameplay. One last bit about the silliness of eccessive political correctness: if a third person game's male PC is designed with a nice ass, many female gamers (and gaymers too) will definitely watch it, so let's stop altogether just scolding straight male gamers for this natural behaviour, and let just mock them if they pay and play a bad game just for some digital asses and boobs. Again, the commandment for devs and designers shouldn't be "don't do it", but "if you really want to do it, do it well".

Suggesting that Samus is more effective when her sex isn't the focus of her character isn't politically correct; "politically correct" refers to a solution that results in the smallest number of pissed off people. Progressive gender disccusion =/= political correctness

As I said previously in the topic: this discussion is not about shaming people about the things they like. It's okay to like sexy ladies, latex catsuits, titties, all sorts of things. I like those things. It's okay to like those things on Samus, even.

But the most powerful representation of her character stripped away any sense of Samus being anyone except for the player. Samus is the player; she is the perfect archetypal faceless hero; she also happens to be a woman.

That's it.