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happydolphin said:

@Wonk. Regarding cannibalism. It's not a good thing in the bible.

"Punishment for Disobedience

14‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands15and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, 16then I will do this to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. 17I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you.

18‘If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. 19I will break down your stubborn pride and make the sky above you like iron and the ground beneath you like bronze. 20Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of the land yield their fruit.

21‘If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.

23“‘If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, 24I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over. 25And I will bring the sword upon you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands. 26When I cut off your supply of bread, ten women will be able to bake your bread in one oven, and they will dole out the bread by weight. You will eat, but you will not be satisfied.

27‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me28then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. 30I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. 31I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings. 32I will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled. 33I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins. 34Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the sabbaths you lived in it.

36“‘As for those of you who are left, I will make their hearts so fearful in the lands of their enemies that the sound of a windblown leaf will put them to flight. They will run as though fleeing from the sword, and they will fall, even though no one is pursuing them. 37They will stumble over one another as though fleeing from the sword, even though no one is pursuing them. So you will not be able to stand before your enemies. 38You will perish among the nations; the land of your enemies will devour you. 39Those of you who are left will waste away in the lands of their enemies because of their sins; also because of their fathers’ sins they will waste away.

40“‘But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their fathers—their treachery against me and their hostility toward me, 41which made me hostile toward them so that I sent them into the land of their enemies—then when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they pay for their sin, 42I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. 43For the land will be deserted by them and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them. They will pay for their sins because they rejected my laws and abhorred my decrees.44Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. 45But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.’”

46These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the Lord established on Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses."


All I see here is it being a punishment for other crime, nothing forbidding it or the punishments for it.

Once again if Christ said you can't be inpure by what you put in your bodies. Thus making all the dietary laws void, the laws of mixed fabric void some would be so bold as to argue all the laws regarding how you grow food and tread your animal void. Why should how it's grown or treated matter if what you eat can't be wrong?  Christ should have made the exception.

 



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Wonktonodi said:
happydolphin said:

@Wonk. Rape is also not considered a good thing in the bible by deduction. The commandments on marriage are as follows

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansingb her by the washing with water through the word27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body.

I don't see how rape fits in that picture at all.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

    If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

That is a law of marriage and rape. How moral is it to force a rape victim to marry her rapist? Is there a point where this is invalidated latter?

To be honest I'm not sure. I don't know if Moses said it to discourage rape at all, because the rapist would have to face the family until either dies. The real problem would be if the rapist is not just an offernder in that he just wants sex, but is actually forcing a woman to marry him by using the law... That would be a horrible issue.

I'm not sure about this. To be honest with you if this actually happened to me it would be a real source of doubting my faith and the authority of my country leaders.

I'm really not sure what the logic is in all this. But my approach is to give it throught before writing it off. I've always done it when it comes to scripture and it's paid off, let me mull this over.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

  If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

Pretty harsh to the rape victim here. Seems the only difference though for the rapist is who they rape. Rape a single vigin and you owe 50 silver pieces and get a wife. Rape a married woman and be put to death.

I like this because you actually take the rules to their ends, and I love that. Keep it up.

So, notice it doesn't say what happens if the girl cries out for help while she was in the city.

Again though, the story of Mary Magdalene supercedes this, and Christ explains the proper approach, which is grace and mercy (to both the victim who was defiled and the rapist who was the offender).

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house.  But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb.  After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife.  However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

Yah, I don't like this one either... There might be something I'm not considering. Probably normally had there been no marriage she would have been a slave and the marriage was a form of redemption for her. Still, it is not in line with the teachings of Christ and the book of Genesis. This is why the law of Moses is secondary to the law of Christ.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

The issue with this one is slavery or something different, I'm not sure. Sorry if I don't see it in this case. Polygamy?



Wonktonodi said:

All I see here is it being a punishment for other crime, nothing forbidding it or the punishments for it.

Once again if Christ said you can't be inpure by what you put in your bodies. Thus making all the dietary laws void, the laws of mixed fabric void some would be so bold as to argue all the laws regarding how you grow food and tread your animal void. Why should how it's grown or treated matter if what you eat can't be wrong?  Christ should have made the exception.

True, there is nothing forbidding it, nor a punishment, but it doesn't mean it is not considered evil and against the will of God, right? There are things not mentioned in the law of Moses that God considers evil but doesn't explicitely say so. We know that because, as such, the law of Moses is incomplete and the law of Christ (see NT) is absolute perfection. Jesus brought points that Moses never mentions, so it is more complete.

On another note, I have absolutely no doubt Christ's unwritten law says not to eat your neighbor given the above passage and the Spirit of God in my heart that testifies (yes, I believe in that).

 

As for your 2nd paragraph I don't see anything wrong with it. Indeed, these are all things that have to do with the "outside of the cup". However, certain rules have  a little more to do with the heart. For example, one law on food is not to cook a young goat in its mothers milk (I think). The analog of that in the New Testament is not to eat blood, since blood is the life of the animal. Things like that. You make parallels as you go. I'm not saying my approach is failproof, but it's pretty solid. Name more and we'll see where we go.

 

As I said, Jesus didn't state the exception because it wasn't brought up to him. He declared all foods clean, and actually Paul goes so far as to say all things are permitted, but not all is profitable. As such you can eat meat from a dead animal, and cook a young goat in its mother's milk, but the important thing is that it does not "scandalize" (is the word) another brother. In that sense nothing a person does condemns them except the sin against the holy spirit (calling the spirit of christ the spirit of satan).

Mind you, the spirit of God testifies to a person. So you would ask yourself questions like "why am I eating a young goat in its mother's milk?" and you'd think hmmm, maybe that's not  really cool and kind of disrespectful to the creature. Or "why am I drinking animal blood?" maybe that's some practice derived from some satanic lust for life (idk, just throwing out ideas, maybe I'm the "weaker brother", see below). But yes, the spirit of God is meant to testify to a believer in substitute for the written law of Moses. Also, that's why some believers drink alcohol and others don't because it's up to the believer in the end, and the command is to not "insult" the conscience of a "weaker" brother. The commandment for alcohol for example is not "do not drink", but "do not be drunk with wine".

Wow, I don't think I was clear at all. This is where it kind of breaks down, but in practice it's much more manageable than in theory because there is alot of give and take, and the christian faith is not meant to be followed in legalism. Sexual immorality though is pretty high on the priority list, as many christian texts discourage it strictly and mention believers who take part in fornication that are plagued with sickness due to their practices. So all is possible but not all is profitable. But a believer who commits to sexual immorality without looking back is pretty much set for hellfire unless an even greater miracle than their first conversion happens.



happydolphin said:
Wonktonodi said:

 

There are no marriage laws really other than not to commit adultery. The others are about sexual relations not so much marriage. As such the institution of marriage never changed in the bible from Moses to the New. The only thing is that Jesus re-confirmed Genesis as superceding Moses on the topic of divorce, but Jesus never called divorce a sin per se, he mostly likened it to adultery, though that's a simplified explanation of what he actually said, which addresses a more specific type of divorce.

There are many actual. The one I showed before of the rapist marrying the rape victim if the victim wasn't engaged/ virgin depending on the translation

http://www.religioustolerance.org/mar_bibl0.htm

So for instance did the new testament get rid of where a man would have to marry his brothers widow if she had no sons?

What were the changes in divorce? I'm pretty sure that the old testament had it where the woman couldn't get a divorce unless her husband agreed. With sad cases for a woman whose husband was lost not being allowed to remarry.  Pretty sure because I was raised Jewish and learned of how in modern day there is the Lieberman clause in Ketubahs.



Wonktonodi said:

There are many actual. The one I showed before of the rapist marrying the rape victim if the victim wasn't engaged/ virgin depending on the translation

http://www.religioustolerance.org/mar_bibl0.htm

So for instance did the new testament get rid of where a man would have to marry his brothers widow if she had no sons?

What were the changes in divorce? I'm pretty sure that the old testament had it where the woman couldn't get a divorce unless her husband agreed. With sad cases for a woman whose husband was lost not being allowed to remarry.  Pretty sure because I was raised Jewish and learned of how in modern day there is the Lieberman clause in Ketubahs.

I'm not entirely sure, but I'll give you the NT reference for you to judge for yourself.

So, Matthew 19.

 

Divorce

1When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’a 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’b6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

7“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

10The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriagec because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

 

It becomes hard to tell what Mosaic laws were there due to the hardness of heart according to Jesus, but maybe this could shed light on the Rape laws you mentioned earlier. :(

I did a quick research and found Deuteronomy 24:1

24 “When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, and if she goes and becomes another man's wife, and the latter man hates her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter man dies, who took her to be his wife, then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled, for that is an abomination before the Lord. And you shall not bring sin upon the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance.

And this paper that I doubt I'll ever read :)

http://www.tyndalehouse.com/tynbul/library/TynBull_1998_49_1_03_Warren_MosesDivorce.pdf



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happydolphin said:
Wonktonodi said:
happydolphin said:

@Wonk. Rape is also not considered a good thing in the bible by deduction. The commandments on marriage are as follows

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansingb her by the washing with water through the word27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body.

I don't see how rape fits in that picture at all.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

    If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

That is a law of marriage and rape. How moral is it to force a rape victim to marry her rapist? Is there a point where this is invalidated latter?

To be honest I'm not sure. I don't know if Moses said it to discourage rape at all, because the rapist would have to face the family until either dies. The real problem would be if the rapist is not just an offernder in that he just wants sex, but is actually forcing a woman to marry him by using the law... That would be a horrible issue.

I'm not sure about this. To be honest with you if this actually happened to me it would be a real source of doubting my faith and the authority of my country leaders.

I'm really not sure what the logic is in all this. But my approach is to give it throught before writing it off. I've always done it when it comes to scripture and it's paid off, let me mull this over.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

  If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

Pretty harsh to the rape victim here. Seems the only difference though for the rapist is who they rape. Rape a single vigin and you owe 50 silver pieces and get a wife. Rape a married woman and be put to death.

I like this because you actually take the rules to their ends, and I love that. Keep it up.

So, notice it doesn't say what happens if the girl cries out for help while she was in the city.

Again though, the story of Mary Magdalene supercedes this, and Christ explains the proper approach, which is grace and mercy (to both the victim who was defiled and the rapist who was the offender).

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house.  But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb.  After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife.  However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

Yah, I don't like this one either... There might be something I'm not considering. Probably normally had there been no marriage she would have been a slave and the marriage was a form of redemption for her. Still, it is not in line with the teachings of Christ and the book of Genesis. This is why the law of Moses is secondary to the law of Christ.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

The issue with this one is slavery or something different, I'm not sure. Sorry if I don't see it in this case. Polygamy?

I'm glad you are seeing some things here that make you question. I grew up Jewish and started questioning years ago.

With the girl crying out for help, the unsaid thing is that obviously someone would stop it and then then consequence would be the one you mentioned before. However cities of today are not the cities of back then, it's much easier to be where you can't be heard. Although even then I would say the law was harsh.

The last paragragh had numerous things that today would be considered horrible. Selling a daughter a a slave. The bolded part is where you could infer the sex and considering that she was sold as a slave I'd have a hard time calling it anything but rape.  There is also another law or marrage in here as well.



Wonktonodi said:

I'm glad you are seeing some things here that make you question. I grew up Jewish and started questioning years ago.

With the girl crying out for help, the unsaid thing is that obviously someone would stop it and then then consequence would be the one you mentioned before. However cities of today are not the cities of back then, it's much easier to be where you can't be heard. Although even then I would say the law was harsh.

The last paragragh had numerous things that today would be considered horrible. Selling a daughter a a slave. The bolded part is where you could infer the sex and considering that she was sold as a slave I'd have a hard time calling it anything but rape.  There is also another law or marrage in here as well.

@bold. mm

Yeah, the selling a daughter as a slave, I was unsure if the father was a slave himself or not. It is aweful to think of. Sometimes you read these things and kind of tell yourself "did I just read that" :3. Probably this should make a man wonder if selling his daughter is the right approach at allin the first place. But maybe again the hardness of hearts... Possibly the slavery tradew as used in very grim and desperate situations where people were dying and this was their only hope, a bit like dept slavery today (it exists for some countries and for some people in the west).

I've always questioned these things, but it helps to question them with people, that's why I like debating these things. If my religion is shameful, why should I hide it? But if it's true, it should stand up to scrutiny. And you are very respectful in your approach so it makes it that much easier and rewarding in the end.



happydolphin said:
Wonktonodi said:

There are many actual. The one I showed before of the rapist marrying the rape victim if the victim wasn't engaged/ virgin depending on the translation

http://www.religioustolerance.org/mar_bibl0.htm

So for instance did the new testament get rid of where a man would have to marry his brothers widow if she had no sons?

What were the changes in divorce? I'm pretty sure that the old testament had it where the woman couldn't get a divorce unless her husband agreed. With sad cases for a woman whose husband was lost not being allowed to remarry.  Pretty sure because I was raised Jewish and learned of how in modern day there is the Lieberman clause in Ketubahs.

I'm not entirely sure, but I'll give you the NT reference for you to judge for yourself.

So, Matthew 19.

 

Divorce

1When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’a 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’b6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

7“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

10The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriagec because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

 

It becomes hard to tell what Mosaic laws were there due to the hardness of heart according to Jesus, but maybe this could shed light on the Rape laws you mentioned earlier. :(

I did a quick research and found Deuteronomy 24:1

24 “When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, and if she goes and becomes another man's wife, and the latter man hates her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter man dies, who took her to be his wife, then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled, for that is an abomination before the Lord. And you shall not bring sin upon the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance.

And this paper that I doubt I'll ever read :)

http://www.tyndalehouse.com/tynbul/library/TynBull_1998_49_1_03_Warren_MosesDivorce.pdf


haven't looked much at the paper yet, but interesting how in this case I think it was made less clear then it had been. By saying you can't except for marital unfathfullness. It probably means there was no change for the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agunah as well as woment still being subject to needed the man to grant a divorce since he was still referring to is as the men divorcing.   Although reminds me of those who make the argument if you want to restore the sanctity of marriage outlaw divorce.

 

I'm not sure how much that covers rape vs an odd divorce law.

I think we have taken this thread a bit off topic though. We might need to start a "bible discussion" thread



I haven't read every comment, but how many people are discussing the fact that Rahm Emmanuel and Boston's mayor are using the power of their office to bar a business from their cities, whereas the statement from Truett Cathy has virtually no bearing on the business, nor people that are gay?

Talk about a double standard. If Chicago or Boston banned a business because it was run by blacks, wouldn't that be pretty bigoted? Only one entity in this discussion effects anyone else - and it isn't Chick-fil-A or Truett Cathy.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Wonktonodi said:

There are many actual. The one I showed before of the rapist marrying the rape victim if the victim wasn't engaged/ virgin depending on the translation

http://www.religioustolerance.org/mar_bibl0.htm

So for instance did the new testament get rid of where a man would have to marry his brothers widow if she had no sons?

What were the changes in divorce? I'm pretty sure that the old testament had it where the woman couldn't get a divorce unless her husband agreed. With sad cases for a woman whose husband was lost not being allowed to remarry.  Pretty sure because I was raised Jewish and learned of how in modern day there is the Lieberman clause in Ketubahs.

@bold. That's a very good question. It doesn't explicitely no. There are Jewish customs that were kept by the messianic Jews in the time of Christ that much I've learnt, but I'm not sure if Jews still practiced this.

The truth is though, that this would appear as more of a custom. In contrast, the commandment of the nuclear family (in your link) was a confirmed commandment that Jesus reiterated, and Paul thereafter. Not only is it clearly not a custom, but it is reinforced. I see little doubt about its authority for a believer.

Again, alot of the faith is left up to interpretation, as the Council in Jerusalem will show. The prodigies and the teachings of Christ lead the first believers to ultimately decide that circumcision was a custom that could be done away with. Paul said so. But when it came to sexual immorality and marriage, Paul was clear that it was to be a nuclear family and certain specific forms of sexual immorality in ephesians 5 were forbidden.

As such, Paul decided that certain rules no longer applied because they were simply "burdens that they could not bear", and some remained since they were of higher priority.

That's what I was trying to say earlier.