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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Wii U is "effectively a 360" says Microsoft

SWORDF1SH on 04 July 2012

I think a multi billion earning company could get hold of the details. It's not exactly water tight when load of developers have the specs in their hands. How many people work for all the developers that have devs kits? lots. So lots of possibilities for leaks.

Anyway never take any notice of these comments. Companies try to affect the mind set of the consumers to their advantage. MS in particular are good at this.



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Adinnieken on 04 July 2012
archbrix said:
Adinnieken said:
archbrix said:
Well, it's PR talk so it's no surprise to hear this, but I just don't get the general consensus behind this opinion. Games like Pikmin 3 and Project P-100 (in addition to Assassin's Creed 3, Aliens, Darksiders, etc) would be right at home visually on the 360 or PS3 RIGHT NOW in their matured lifespan... and WiiU hasn't even been released yet.

Gears of War handily dwarfed the 360's launch games just a year later, so saying that WiiU is "basically on par with Xbox 360" based solely on what we've seen so far is quite premature; particularly considering what we know/have heard concerning specs.


The Wii U has a quad-core processor based on the Power7 processor running at 3GHz.  The Xbox 360 has a tri-core based on the Power5+ processor running at 3.2GHz.

The challenge is this.  If we look at the specs, there is an improvement over the Xbox 360, but the problem is one report has suggested that the processor in the Wii U is nerfed at 2 hardware threads per core, rather than 4 hardware threads.  Thus the improvement in processing power over the 360 is significantly less.

I don't think Microsoft is arguing that the power of the Wii U is a 1:1 facsimile of the Xbox 360.  However, so far I don't think any of the reports that have come out have suggested that it is so significantly better than the Xbox 360 that a developer couldn't easily develop a game for both the 360 and the Wii U given the similarity in hardware and controller scheme with the Pro controller.

In other words, I think Microsoft is trying to suggest to developers.  Hey, if you have something you're doing specifically for the Wii U, you can probably make it work just as easily on the Xbox 360.  The flip side of that possibly being just as true.

 

While I certainly don't expect the WiiU's POWER7 to be "Watson" powerful, neither Nintendo nor IBM have confirmed the number of active cores, threads per core, clock rate, amount of cache, etc.  So while there is that report that you speak of, there are also other opinions (such as Gearbox's Randy Pitchford) that indicate the CPU is more powerful than the Xenon.  And with the strongly rumored GPU (R700 family) and the all-but-confirmed increase in RAM (nearly 3 times as much), making WiiU games a year or so down the road work on 360 may not be as easy as you think; especially when regarding simultaneously active screens in use.  In any case, saying WiiU is basically on par with 360, as Spencer suggests, is what I was contesting since I believe it's too early to declare that.

Incidentally, is it just me or does anyone else find it strange that it's almost always GamesIndustry.biz where these reports of WiiU's "underpowered" hardware emanate from?

Let's start with a correction, the Wii U's processor is a tri-core as well.  I keep making the mistake of remembering the original specs that were going around.  But the specs on Nintendo's web site are that it is a Power-based tri-core processor.  So you would be mistaken there.  Since the Power7 is the only current Power processor, I'm going to assume that the Wii U is using the Power 7 as the basis of the CPU.  You are correct, Nintendo has not come out said how many threads per core are available, however they have also not refuted the assertion by a developer that the Wii U's CPU is limited to two hardware threads per core.  I would think, with the Wii U releasing shortly, that Nintendo would be going to the press with specs to counter any argument thaat the Wii U isn't powerful.  But they aren't.

Just as an fyi, even the Xbox 360's processor is a nerfed Power5+ CPU.  So it wouldn't be unexpected for the Wii U's processor to be nerfed as well.  The fully functioning processor is a bit expensive, so in both cases a less powerful version of the commercial CPU is used.

I'm less concerned about the memory and the GPU because any modern GPU will be significantly more capable than any GPU available in any current console.  As well, the rumors of 1.5GB or more of memory seems acceptable.  Memory will only be an issue if the CPU is powerful and there isn't enough memory to do more with the console.  Having a ton of memory but a CPU that can't take advantage of it would be pretty worthless.

Nothing I have said suggests that the Wii U is less powerful than the Xbox 360, and I would think it would be ridiculous to assert that it is functionally the same when considering it likely uses a Power7 CPU, a modern GPU, and includes more memory.  Having said that, I think many third-party games will be just as do-able on the 360 as they are on the Wii U.  Would the Wii U version be graphically better, most likely yes.  Could it offer a better AI and draw distance?   Sure.  None of that stops an easy port from the Wii U to the Xbox 360.



Ji99saw on 04 July 2012

Why is everyone concerned about Wii U vs 7year old tec, You should be concerned about Wii U vs 720 and PS4



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mike_intellivision on 04 July 2012
Epic_Bro_Fist said:
Mad55 said:
Epic_Bro_Fist said:
IamAwsome said:
The only way they would know the exact specs is if they stole a Wii U and tore it open.


Wouldn't it be possible for MS to just ask Epic about the specs of the Wii U since Epic as a publisher would have probably gotten a dev kit?

Well that would be pretty shady of epic to do and Im pretty sure Nintendo doesn't  want them to.

I imagine that Epic's loyalty  would lean on Micrsofts side of the court.

Except that an NDA would mean court action a d jail time if Epic did that.

 

Mike from Morgantown



      


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Adinnieken on 04 July 2012
mike_intellivision said:

Except that an NDA would mean court action a d jail time if Epic did that.

 

Mike from Morgantown


You offer a logic fail, sir. 

An NDA is a civil contract.  You cannot be jailed for violating a civil contract.  If you could then you'd have something more significant than the ban hammer to worry about on VGChartz.

At worst, you would be ordered to pay damages, and the damages you would pay would be outlined in the contract you signed.

For example, several people violated the NDA when Microsoft offered Kinect under beta.  None of those individuals were jailed, they were asked, by legal demand, to send the Kinect unit back.  For some, an individual was sent to the residence to obtain the unit directly.



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archbrix on 04 July 2012
Adinnieken said

Let's start with a correction, the Wii U's processor is a tri-core as well.  I keep making the mistake of remembering the original specs that were going around.  But the specs on Nintendo's web site are that it is a Power-based tri-core processor.  So you would be mistaken there.  Since the Power7 is the only current Power processor, I'm going to assume that the Wii U is using the Power 7 as the basis of the CPU.  You are correct, Nintendo has not come out said how many threads per core are available, however they have also not refuted the assertion by a developer that the Wii U's CPU is limited to two hardware threads per core.  I would think, with the Wii U releasing shortly, that Nintendo would be going to the press with specs to counter any argument thaat the Wii U isn't powerful.  But they aren't.

Just as an fyi, even the Xbox 360's processor is a nerfed Power5+ CPU.  So it wouldn't be unexpected for the Wii U's processor to be nerfed as well.  The fully functioning processor is a bit expensive, so in both cases a less powerful version of the commercial CPU is used.

I'm less concerned about the memory and the GPU because any modern GPU will be significantly more capable than any GPU available in any current console.  As well, the rumors of 1.5GB or more of memory seems acceptable.  Memory will only be an issue if the CPU is powerful and there isn't enough memory to do more with the console.  Having a ton of memory but a CPU that can't take advantage of it would be pretty worthless.

Nothing I have said suggests that the Wii U is less powerful than the Xbox 360, and I would think it would be ridiculous to assert that it is functionally the same when considering it likely uses a Power7 CPU, a modern GPU, and includes more memory.  Having said that, I think many third-party games will be just as do-able on the 360 as they are on the Wii U.  Would the Wii U version be graphically better, most likely yes.  Could it offer a better AI and draw distance?   Sure.  None of that stops an easy port from the Wii U to the Xbox 360.

Actually, unless I just missed something, the specs on Nintendo's web site do not specify the CPU to be a tri-core processor.  All it states is that it is an IBM POWER based multi-core processor.

http://www.nintendo.com/wiiu/#/features

Still, I'll concede that the majority or rumors do support the tri-core claim, so I'd wager that you are correct.  But the fact that Nintendo has not refuted any claims made such as threads per core is hardly an admission that such claims are fact, simply because it is not Nintendo's habit to address rumors and speculation regarding tech specs.  I remember many opinions floating around prior to the Gamecube's launch that the system wasn't up to par with the PS2, until Factor 5 (and later, EA) did their own benchmark tests and publicly praised its capabilities.  Point being, that Nintendo remained similarly silent during all of that.

I realize that you're not saying that WiiU will be less powerful than 360, and I agree that many 3rd party WiiU games would be do-able on the 360.  The question is, would the best of the WiiU's games - games in a year or so after launch built from the ground up to take advantage of the newer hardware -  be an "easy" port to 360?  If you believe Microsoft's PR, then yes.  I, however, remain skeptical about that.



Cobretti2 on 04 July 2012
archbrix said:
Adinnieken said

Let's start with a correction, the Wii U's processor is a tri-core as well.  I keep making the mistake of remembering the original specs that were going around.  But the specs on Nintendo's web site are that it is a Power-based tri-core processor.  So you would be mistaken there.  Since the Power7 is the only current Power processor, I'm going to assume that the Wii U is using the Power 7 as the basis of the CPU.  You are correct, Nintendo has not come out said how many threads per core are available, however they have also not refuted the assertion by a developer that the Wii U's CPU is limited to two hardware threads per core.  I would think, with the Wii U releasing shortly, that Nintendo would be going to the press with specs to counter any argument thaat the Wii U isn't powerful.  But they aren't.

Just as an fyi, even the Xbox 360's processor is a nerfed Power5+ CPU.  So it wouldn't be unexpected for the Wii U's processor to be nerfed as well.  The fully functioning processor is a bit expensive, so in both cases a less powerful version of the commercial CPU is used.

I'm less concerned about the memory and the GPU because any modern GPU will be significantly more capable than any GPU available in any current console.  As well, the rumors of 1.5GB or more of memory seems acceptable.  Memory will only be an issue if the CPU is powerful and there isn't enough memory to do more with the console.  Having a ton of memory but a CPU that can't take advantage of it would be pretty worthless.

Nothing I have said suggests that the Wii U is less powerful than the Xbox 360, and I would think it would be ridiculous to assert that it is functionally the same when considering it likely uses a Power7 CPU, a modern GPU, and includes more memory.  Having said that, I think many third-party games will be just as do-able on the 360 as they are on the Wii U.  Would the Wii U version be graphically better, most likely yes.  Could it offer a better AI and draw distance?   Sure.  None of that stops an easy port from the Wii U to the Xbox 360.

Actually, unless I just missed something, the specs on Nintendo's web site do not specify the CPU to be a tri-core processor.  All it states is that it is an IBM POWER based multi-core processor.

http://www.nintendo.com/wiiu/#/features

Still, I'll concede that the majority or rumors do support the tri-core claim, so I'd wager that you are correct.  But the fact that Nintendo has not refuted any claims made such as threads per core is hardly an admission that such claims are fact, simply because it is not Nintendo's habit to address rumors and speculation regarding tech specs.  I remember many opinions floating around prior to the Gamecube's launch that the system wasn't up to par with the PS2, until Factor 5 (and later, EA) did their own benchmark tests and publicly praised its capabilities.  Point being, that Nintendo remained similarly silent during all of that.

I realize that you're not saying that WiiU will be less powerful than 360, and I agree that many 3rd party WiiU games would be do-able on the 360.  The question is, would the best of the WiiU's games - games in a year or so after launch built from the ground up to take advantage of the newer hardware -  be an "easy" port to 360?  If you believe Microsoft's PR, then yes.  I, however, remain skeptical about that.


I think the PR guys believes  (or is banking on) that the WiiU will be similar to Wii. In that the developers won't bother trying tp push the gfx (as apparently Nintendo owners dont care about gfx, or jsut cheaper to do ports) on the system to reach it's full potential. After all there are better looking Gamecube games than on Wii. By this logic sure the WiiU games will be on par with the 360.

What will be interesting is when PS4 and  Nextbox come out. We knwo they will be better than WiiU (by how much who knows). Will the gfx quality then imporve on WiiU or will WiiU support be dropped all together?? is the real question here.



 

 

Adinnieken on 04 July 2012
archbrix said:

Actually, unless I just missed something, the specs on Nintendo's web site do not specify the CPU to be a tri-core processor.  All it states is that it is an IBM POWER based multi-core processor.

http://www.nintendo.com/wiiu/#/features

Still, I'll concede that the majority or rumors do support the tri-core claim, so I'd wager that you are correct.  But the fact that Nintendo has not refuted any claims made such as threads per core is hardly an admission that such claims are fact, simply because it is not Nintendo's habit to address rumors and speculation regarding tech specs.  I remember many opinions floating around prior to the Gamecube's launch that the system wasn't up to par with the PS2, until Factor 5 (and later, EA) did their own benchmark tests and publicly praised its capabilities.  Point being, that Nintendo remained similarly silent during all of that.

I realize that you're not saying that WiiU will be less powerful than 360, and I agree that many 3rd party WiiU games would be do-able on the 360.  The question is, would the best of the WiiU's games - games in a year or so after launch built from the ground up to take advantage of the newer hardware -  be an "easy" port to 360?  If you believe Microsoft's PR, then yes.  I, however, remain skeptical about that.

I believe in a years time (from the Wii U launch) the next Xbox specs will eclipse the power of the Wii U.  So games that require more beefy specs will end up on the new Xbox, and games that don't will end up on one or both. 



Alby_da_Wolf on 05 July 2012

^^
You both wrote sensible things, I'd just add one: just like with the current gen, next gen POWER architecture will be more than capable to offer very good performances at a nice and not excessive price, the biggest limiting factor could be power consumption.



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mushroomboy5 on 05 July 2012
kupomogli said:
The Wii U, 3DS, and Vita have something in common. They're consoles/handhelds for ports and remakes. Atleast currently. Forget about all the original games that came out or are coming out on all three, let's only focus on the ports and remakes.

/sarcasm.

Well...when I look at shelves in gameshops these days all I see is 'hd collections' of last generation games, so I wouldn't say this was unique to the wii u, 3ds and vita.