By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - Allow me to Defend every Criminal out there

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
wfz said:
I feel that people see the situation like this: A man does something terribly evil to a helpless woman. After years of torment, she saves herself and kills him in the process."

You could argue that "A man had a terrible upbringing and as a result did what he had to do to feel control and "save" his life, which resulted in severe pain for a woman. That woman had a terrible experience and as a result killed him to bring back control to her life and save herself."

Making their situations seem very similar. In this case, however, I'd side with the woman. It's much more acceptable to take revenge out on those who have wronged you than to spread that wronging to more innocent people.


Just remember that while the woman killed him to take revenge and to clear her mind, capturing her was his revenge for his miserable childhood (well, and to clear his mind).

Both of them did something wrong because of previous experiences. Her experience just happened to be more recent and more visible to the public.



Don't leave out that the woman killed the direct cause of her problems, whom would have probably captured her again when given the chance. As opposed to the man who killed an innocent, not because of her actions, but a party completely unrelated to her.

Around the Network
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Oftentimes, understanding a criminal's reasoning seems to be a difficult challenge for the average citizen, as opposed to the simple cases where kids pilfer candy or breaks public property. Those minor criminal actions are easily explained through the kid's innocence, and poor upbringing from their parents who failed to teach it what is right and what is wrong. It may also be explained through the kid's lack of reasoning abilities-, that it fail to understand the possible consequences of its actions.

  • You are assuming that understanding the criminals reason gives some justification for his actions. This is incorrect. More on that to come.

This does not exclusively apply to kids though. If a poor and/or homeless person steal food from a store, it is fairly easy to sympathize with its actions, which will not be condemned by the average citizen in the same way as, for instance, murder would. The reason to this is because the reasoning is obvious, and the only person who can't see it (or simply choose to ignore it) would be the owner of the store.

There are exceptions regarding murder as well though. If a woman is being held prisoner in a man's house (that has happened on several occasions) for years, it would be no struggle to figure out why she would eventually murder him, even if she was able to escape without doing so. In fact, it may not even be considered a criminal action because of the reasoning which is as obvious as it possibly may be. I mean, in this case (where murder is not necessary, which it isn't in almost all cases), she is willing to break the laws in order to make peace in her mind. Because the awareness of him being alive would make her depressed and frustrated for the rest of her life.

  • This is not murder. If she is being held against her will, and she kills him while escaping, it is still in self-defense, and not against the law. Not all killing is murder. If she escaped, then later he was tried and convicted... then 15 years later when he gets out of prison she went and killed it, it would be murder.

The average citizen sympathize with her for perfectly understandable reasons, but what they fail to do is to sympathize with the man who held her captured. In the end, they are both criminals. Yet, only one of them receives sympathy from the public. The reason? People can only understand her reasoning, but not his. Instead, people say "He was free to do what ever he wanted, yet he chose to held her captured? This action cannot be defended."

  • There is right and wrong. What he did was very wrong, and what she did was a response to that. If I punch you, I'm wrong. If you defend yourself, your punches aren't equally wrong - you have the right to defend yourself. Only one deserves the sympathy of the public. One can feel bad about his upbringing, but that doesn't mean he didn't deserve what he got.

Her reasoning makes sense to the masses, the poor/homeless thief's reasoning makes sense to the masses and the kid's resoning or lack of reasoning makes sense to the masses. When it comes to the man who held her captured though, the outbreak from the masses becomes massive once the court has confirmed that he is not mentally ill. He will be hated throughout the rest of his life, while she and the poor thieves are heroes who dare to break the laws.

  • Let's be clear - her reasoning makes sense to the masses because the reason makes sense, period. A man who decides to absolutely ruin a woman's life by kidnapping and violating her, a trauma which will negatively impact the rest of her life, has surrendered his right to be given any kind of positive viewpoint. If he is not mentally ill, then victimizing someone else in this way cannot be justified.

Here is what the masses fail to see: The man had a horrible upbringing with parents who never played- or spent time with him, and did not even let him go to his friend(s) houses out of fear that he may tell them about their drug abuse. He had to go to school on his own, while his friends used their bikes. In school, he was constantly bullied because of his smelling clothes who also happened to be too small. And his teachers kept yelling at him in front of the whole class for arriving one hour too late, when all he wanted was some extra sleep from everything regarding life. He eventually pulled through all necessary education to get a decent job, but the scars from his childhood never healed, and he kept hating himself for reasons that he couldn't explain. One day though, he finally met the dream girl of his life. The relationship lasted for a few months, but after a while she started feeling uncomfortable around him and wanted to break up. At that point he was terrified. Loosing her would result in the greatest depression of his life, and probably suicide. To stop this from happening, he did what he had to do in order to maintain control of his life (sounds familiar?), and what he did should be obvious at this point.

  • Let's look into this situation a little closer, though. This person has these emotional scars, obviously, but he has escaped his parents. He has an education, a job, a life. Everything he has learned since then, in life, on TV, by the media, makes him know, fully well, that kidnapping someone is wrong. If you were to ask him, academically, if what he was planning to do was right or wrong, he knows the answer. In fact, chances are, at some point in the past it would have been unthinkable for him. But he thinks about it... imagines it... wants it... And eventually he's willing to disregard his victim's feelings to the point where only his own matter.

He saved his own life, she eventually restored peace in her mind and the thieves got food on their tables. Yet, he is the only one hated by the masses who probably wanted to see him dead anyway.

  • No, he didn't save his own life. If the threat to your own life is suicide, then you are your own problem. You must correct this without victimizing others. He could choose to get help, or try a constructive way to deal with his depression. but  instead he CHOOSES a route that damages someone else.

Moral: There is reasoning behind every criminal's actions. We should feel sorry for all of them no matter how severe their crimes may be, and we should be nothing but equally sorry for their victims. There are two kinds of people: Fortunate, and unfortunate. And the fact that they cannot will as they wills is what they have in common.

  • Your moral is false. We can feel sorry for them, but that doesn't negate the need to punish them. And we should NOT be equally sorry. When people bring consequences on themselves for their actions, they are culpable, even if there's a "reason" for it. The fact is, two people can go through the exact same thing, and one becomes a kidnapper, while the other goes to counseling and deals with it without hurting others. You can feel bad for both people, but when the kidnapper gets himself murdered by the girl he's kept trapped in his basement, noone's crying, and noone should. There is not just fortunate and unfortunate. There are good and bad.
  • Certainly it would be best to understand the motivations of criminals, but there are limits. The prisons are full of people who, with a better justice system, could be genuinely reformed instead of merely punished. However, that's not all of them. At some point, it must be acknowledged that people who willfully commit terrible actions need to be dealt with accordingly. He put her in the basement(bad, wrong, never justifiable), she put him in the ground(also wrong, if it was avoidable, but easily justified).


Answers above



badgenome said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

I am well aware of what is happening in Malmö and I strictly oppose it. The problem over there is that the immigrants have brought their culture and (some of them) refuse to let go of even the most ridiculous customs. Our government is convinced that they will learn to be perfectly open minded eventually, but as long as they keep supporting that they don't even need to learn to speak swedish I don't see this happening in the near future.

I don't support everything that the Swedish government does. But it still does a better job than most.

Well, that is exactly where your "let's be sympathetic to everyone" bullshit has landed you. Some people cannot be reasoned with because they have no interest in being reasoned with.

And look at Japan. They take the exact opposite approach to criminality as you're suggesting, and they are better than Sweden by almost every single metric.

Wrong. They choose not to be reasoned with because the Swedish government allows it. In reality, everyone can be reasoned with.

As for your Japanese example, if you believe that fear, pain and death is the best way to keep people from commiting crimes, then we have very different views.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
wfz said:
I feel that people see the situation like this: A man does something terribly evil to a helpless woman. After years of torment, she saves herself and kills him in the process."

You could argue that "A man had a terrible upbringing and as a result did what he had to do to feel control and "save" his life, which resulted in severe pain for a woman. That woman had a terrible experience and as a result killed him to bring back control to her life and save herself."

Making their situations seem very similar. In this case, however, I'd side with the woman. It's much more acceptable to take revenge out on those who have wronged you than to spread that wronging to more innocent people.


Just remember that while the woman killed him to take revenge and to clear her mind, capturing her was his revenge for his miserable childhood (well, and to clear his mind).

Both of them did something wrong because of previous experiences. Her experience just happened to be more recent and more visible to the public.


That "visible to the public" point is a really strong point.

But I thought I addressed the rest of that with my post. He was reacting to "save" himself from a terrible past, and she was doing the same. But as I said it is much more acceptable to take revenge out on those who have wronged you than to spread that wronging to more innocent people. Socially speaking.

 


Interesting idea, though. If his parents had wronged him so badly, and he tied them up in his basement and made them suffer in revenge for all they had made him suffer through, and then they escaped and killed him in the process, it is likely that the public would have sided a bit more split between the sides, but mostly side with the parents. I believe that's because his upbringing, as you said, was invisible to the public while this wasn't.

 

Regardless of what your past has done, if you are out of it now, you are expected to grow and be more responsible as a result. Check this out

 

1) He was tortured as a child but is now out of it, grown up. He then finds this woman and the story ensues.

2) This woman was tortured and *while getting out of the torture* she kills him

 

See the difference? He was already out, and now society expects him to act maturely and responsible. That woman wasn't causing him torment, his insecurities and past life with his parents were.  In the case of the woman, the crime she committed was in an effort to escape the current torment from the person directly giving her the torment.

 

Hence people side with the woman.

Had the man killed his parents while escaping their torture in his childhood, he would likely not be looked down upon.

 

EDIT: DAMN you Jay for looking at my screen and posting my point before I could finish my post. :(



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Wrong. They choose not to be reasoned with because the Swedish government allows it. In reality, everyone can be reasoned with.

As for your Japanese example, if you believe that fear, pain and death is the best way to keep people from commiting crimes, then we have very different views.

Because the Swedish government allows it...? What is the alternative? I'm guessing some variety of coercion, i.e. "fear, death, and pain".



Around the Network
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Just remember that while the woman killed him to take revenge and to clear her mind, capturing her was his revenge for his miserable childhood (well, and to clear his mind).

Both of them did something wrong because of previous experiences. Her experience just happened to be more recent and more visible to the public.



Don't leave out that the woman killed the direct cause of her problems, whom would have probably captured her again when given the chance. As opposed to the man who killed an innocent, not because of her actions, but a party completely unrelated to her.


There are methods to keep criminals away from victims. But if the treatment is perfectly successful you would reach a point where he actually says sorry to her.

I'm not sure what that last sentence is about.



How can I respond with the OP without getting banned... I'll keep my opinion to myself then.

Plus I can't really distinguish whether this is a real opinion or a controversial reaction thread.



I am the black sheep     "of course I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."-Robert Anton Wilson

badgenome said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Wrong. They choose not to be reasoned with because the Swedish government allows it. In reality, everyone can be reasoned with.

As for your Japanese example, if you believe that fear, pain and death is the best way to keep people from commiting crimes, then we have very different views.

Because the Swedish government allows it...? What is the alternative? I'm guessing some variety of coercion, i.e. "fear, death, and pain".


The government allows people to stick close to their cultures, which may result in that they choose not to embrace the Swedish society and norms. In the most severe cases (although this is very rare) it has resulted in open hate towards certain minorities, as opposed to the very open Swedish society.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Just remember that while the woman killed him to take revenge and to clear her mind, capturing her was his revenge for his miserable childhood (well, and to clear his mind).

Both of them did something wrong because of previous experiences. Her experience just happened to be more recent and more visible to the public.



Don't leave out that the woman killed the direct cause of her problems, whom would have probably captured her again when given the chance. As opposed to the man who killed an innocent, not because of her actions, but a party completely unrelated to her.


There are methods to keep criminals away from victims. But if the treatment is perfectly successful you would reach a point where he actually says sorry to her.

I'm not sure what that last sentence is about.



I'll repeat myself then. The man is more wrong then the woman because...

1.) The woman was killing the direct source of her suffering. There was no other way she could have realistically escaped with him being alive &

2.) The man killed an innocent. The woman was not making him suffer, it was his fucked up childhood. His 'revenge' was not replied to the rightful party. If he really couldn't live without her, then he had the option to get help. The woman had no options.

So yeah, we should sympathize more with the woman.

hatmoza said:

How can I respond with the OP without getting banned... I'll keep my opinion to myself then.

Plus I can't really distinguish whether this is a real opinion or a controversial reaction thread.



Why did you post in this thread then? If you knew you wouldn't respond to the OP? What is your purpose? To let us know that you won't respond?