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Forums - General Discussion - The Abrahamic Religions make No Sense

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
SargeSmash said:
I've skipped over a good deal of the discussion, so if I've missed something, I apologize. The way I've always understood this conundrum is that God is outside of time entirely. He exists in what we, as temporally-limited beings, consider the past, present, and future. We are limited to only move from the present forward. God has no such limitations, and being outside of time, His observation of events does not affect our free will.

I've heard a friend of mine likening it to someone in a boat in a river. The river branches, and the boatman can choose to go one way or the other. He chooses the right. Someone on the bank of the river, outside of it, saw the person make the decision and is fully aware of it, yet had no influence on the actual decision. This is what God does. We make the decisions, but due to His viewpoint, he already knows our decision. It doesn't affect our free will one iota.

Interestingly, this also means that God allows evil to exist. And we know this has to be the case. God gave Adam and Eve the choice to either obey Him or not from the very beginning. Evil, by definition, is anything that is against God. And we know earlier that the same choice was given to Satan. And if there is no alternative to God, then there is no choice, and therefore we are merely automatons created to serve him with no free will. The fact that we are free to choose Him makes that worship actually worth something to Him.


Thanks for the detailed response, and I'd like to elaborate on your river example:

While God never actually did anything to affect this boat driver's decision, surely, as an almighty deity, he should have known what direction the driver would choose even before it made the decision?

Even if his will is free, God is still able to look one/infinite steps ahead. God knows why this person chose the specific direction that it chose.

 

The same thing can be said about any person and/or criminal: God can fully understand the reasoning from their perspective, and sympathize with their decisions, no matter how horrible or evil it may look from a non-omnipotent point of view, There is always a reason to why people choose to make decisions that are looked upon as evil actions, and God is aware of every possible reason there may be.



This is actually one of the theories I was refrencing to earlier. Also, I agree with someone else earlier in the thread that said I think your idea of all mighty is off.

Also, are you ready for a mind fuck? Maybe since he IS almighty that he intentionally limits himself and doesn't allow himself to know what choices you make until you make them even though he has the power to do so.

Also to elaborate the analogy earlier. Imagine a globe. The equator the time line. God is at the north pole. The lines of longitude is his vision. Basically he can see the past present and future all at the same time. but since god is a timeless being they would all be happening simultaneously.



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IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

God is almighty, and He has every single ability that one may think of. This obviously includes the ablity to see the future, to flawlessly predict everything that will happen in this universe. God is aware of everything.

This makes you wonder though: If God really is almighty, then doesn't He already know who will end up in heaven and who will end up in hell? Would He not be able to predict every single good deed and sin that you will commit throughout your life, even before you were born? I mean, how could He not know?

As I see it, God is currently watching us go through happiness and misery just for the hell of it. He knows exactly how evil will affect all humans involved and He has the ability to stop it. He already knows how every single human will use their free (yet, by God, predictable) will, so it's not up to us to do anything about our situation.

 

Our fate is in God's hands. Period.

This is actually a minority viewpoint of western religions. In particular, Calvinism - a modern brand of Christianity which emerged in the 16th century.



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Max King of the Wild said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

While God never actually did anything to affect this boat driver's decision, surely, as an almighty deity, he should have known what direction the driver would choose even before it made the decision?

Even if his will is free, God is still able to look one/infinite steps ahead. God knows why this person chose the specific direction that it chose.

 

The same thing can be said about any person and/or criminal: God can fully understand the reasoning from their perspective, and sympathize with their decisions, no matter how horrible or evil it may look from a non-omnipotent point of view, There is always a reason to why people choose to make decisions that are looked upon as evil actions, and God is aware of every possible reason there may be.



This is actually one of the theories I was refrencing to earlier. Also, I agree with someone else earlier in the thread that said I think your idea of all mighty is off.

Also, are you ready for a mind fuck? Maybe since he IS almighty that he intentionally limits himself and doesn't allow himself to know what choices you make until you make them even though he has the power to do so.

Also to elaborate the analogy earlier. Imagine a globe. The equator the time line. God is at the north pole. The lines of longitude is his vision. Basically he can see the past present and future all at the same time. but since god is a timeless being they would all be happening simultaneously.


Bolded: How? An almighty deity has no limitations and is not bound by the laws of physics. It also has a complete knowledge with no flaws or whatsoever.

Italics: Sounds to me like he intentionally put people through suffering then. That doesn't sound like a very merciful god, compared to the Bible's implications.

Underlined: Good. Then he is fully aware of everything that happens and that will happen. It still doesn't change the fact that he lets it happen though.



Jumpin said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Our fate is in God's hands. Period.

This is actually a minority viewpoint of western religions. In particular, Calvinism - a modern brand of Christianity which emerged in the 16th century.


True. I wonder what's going through their heads xD

 

(since a determined world renders the existence of heaven and hell completely illogical.)



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
SnakeDrake said:
I hate it when people mix up the Devil's work as God's will

Why???

If God wanted to He could easily kill the Devil.

Becaue if the Devil dies so will all those people who has not accepted and committed to Jesus Christ



 

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The concept of God represents the ultimate justice, it is unjust to treat someone based on something he/she didn't do. Knowing it is actually irrelevant.

Other reason is.. why not ?



SnakeDrake said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
SnakeDrake said:
I hate it when people mix up the Devil's work as God's will

Why???

If God wanted to He could easily kill the Devil.

Becaue if the Devil dies so will all those people who has not accepted and committed to Jesus Christ


Then it is God's will to let the Devil perform all his work.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
SargeSmash said:

Again, you're still constraining yourself to a linear flow of time (and it's totally understandable, as it's the only thing we know).  To God, there is no "one / infinite steps ahead", there is only now.  For Him, the past, present, and future are all His now, as best we can understand it.  (This is where it sucks to be a temporal being, chained to the flow of time.)

Does he understand our motivations, though?  Absolutely.  Which is why if someone commits a heinous crime from our point of view, they may or may not be as culpable in His eyes as someone that knew full well what they were doing was wrong, and chose to do it anyway.  He judges us not just on our actions, but our very hearts and souls.  And while evil actions are very much held into account, how much more so are our instincts, even if we do not act upon it?  Jesus Himself said that all have fallen short of the glory of God, and gave examples of how even evil thoughts were as bad as actually committing the deed.  So yes, God knows our motivations.  He also knows we're flawed.  It's why he gave us a way out, when He really had no good reason to do so.  We certainly don't deserve it.

Another thought:  If a being is omniscient, then they also have the power to reign in that omniscience, if they will it to be so.  Christ did so, and there's no reason for me to believe God Himself is incapable of the feat.  Counter-intuitive, sure, but if we're talking about a being that can create the entire universe in six days, it's not too much of a stretch to believe He can not have to exercise all of His ability, either, and give us that free will.

Bolded: You are right; We are chained to the flow of time. But shouldn't it be possibe for an almighy outsider to analyze the future through the cause-effect model? Present is shaped by the past and the future is shaped by the present. God must have full control/understanding of time, and must be able to see the future in order to actually be almighty.

That is where the rest of the free will argument fall as well. If everything isn't linear, then God can't possibly see the future and is, de facto: Flawed.

As for the last paragraph, or more specifically: The underlined: That dilemma is just like the old fashioned "Can God create a rock that is so heavy that he cannot lift it?"-dilemma. It is a paradox without a (logical) answer.

You are making an assumption here. In a universe of free will, the ability to accurately predict everything for all time would be logically absurd for obvious reasons. I don't think the inability to perform the logically absurd can really be called a flaw.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Max King of the Wild said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

While God never actually did anything to affect this boat driver's decision, surely, as an almighty deity, he should have known what direction the driver would choose even before it made the decision?

Even if his will is free, God is still able to look one/infinite steps ahead. God knows why this person chose the specific direction that it chose.

 

The same thing can be said about any person and/or criminal: God can fully understand the reasoning from their perspective, and sympathize with their decisions, no matter how horrible or evil it may look from a non-omnipotent point of view, There is always a reason to why people choose to make decisions that are looked upon as evil actions, and God is aware of every possible reason there may be.



This is actually one of the theories I was refrencing to earlier. Also, I agree with someone else earlier in the thread that said I think your idea of all mighty is off.

Also, are you ready for a mind fuck? Maybe since he IS almighty that he intentionally limits himself and doesn't allow himself to know what choices you make until you make them even though he has the power to do so.

Also to elaborate the analogy earlier. Imagine a globe. The equator the time line. God is at the north pole. The lines of longitude is his vision. Basically he can see the past present and future all at the same time. but since god is a timeless being they would all be happening simultaneously.


Bolded: How? An almighty deity has no limitations and is not bound by the laws of physics. It also has a complete knowledge with no flaws or whatsoever.

Italics: Sounds to me like he intentionally put people through suffering then. That doesn't sound like a very merciful god, compared to the Bible's implications.

Underlined: Good. Then he is fully aware of everything that happens and that will happen. It still doesn't change the fact that he lets it happen though.


Italics: What is mercy? (Read ethyphro)

Underlined: If he intervened then he would take away one of the most precious gifts he gave humans. Free will. And maybe that attribute is so important to him that we need to live in a world with laws such as this to have it. Also, that attribute is very important to humans.

If you wanted to hit me in the head with a bat and when you were about to do evil god turned the bat into flowers. You would not have had the ability to carry out your intentions thus you have no free will.



Jumpin said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

That is where the rest of the free will argument fall as well. If everything isn't linear, then God can't possibly see the future and is, de facto: Flawed.

You are making an assumption here. In a universe of free will, the ability to accurately predict everything for all time would be logically absurd for obvious reasons. I don't think the lack of the ability to perform the logically absurd can really be called a flaw.

I think so though. Would God still be considered almighty if he wasn't infinitely intelligent (which is logically absurd)?