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Forums - General Discussion - Is it fair that God forces us to be conscious for an eternity?

 

Answer the damn question!

Yes, it's fair. 49 49.00%
 
No, it's not fair. 19 19.00%
 
Other. (Please specify). 32 32.00%
 
Total:100
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
sergiodaly said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

People just say that about pretty much every single part of the Bible...

After all, it is God's word. How could it not be flawless? And why ignore certain parts of His wisdom?

*sigh*

almost everything in the Bible is not literal because is indented to say more than the words written down. and this is the case. we are intelligent been (or being, don't really know) so we have the ability to see beyond the words, we can see the meaning of them... we can certainly learn from His wisdom, and i don't recall ignoring any part of it.

So, all that stuff about homosexuality being a disgrace actually has a deeper meaning?

Good to know.

if you are going to take my words out of context and use them as argument, i will not debate with you no more...

thank you for not making any point and wast my time!



Proudest Platinums - BF: Bad Company, Killzone 2 , Battlefield 3 and GTA4

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Jay520 said:
Roma said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Roma said:
the way we live and think alive is different than the way we will in the afterlife


Source?

Why would you think we would get bored in the afterlife? I mean in heaven there will be no evil in us if we get there that is so why would boredom be something that stays with us?

 

Boredom can lead to bad things

 

Heaven is always good

 

Source: heaven

 

 





That makes no sense. How can there be good with no bad. For what is positive? But the contrast of negative? Good would not be 'good' in heaven. Good would simply be neutral. An eternity of a completely neutral state of mind. That does not sound 'good' at all.

That’s what I meant with we think differently when dead than we do now

In life we have the good and evil mixed in one life but in death these are separated to heaven and hell

And yes you can have good without bad

It doesn’t matter if it makes sense or not

 





    R.I.P Mr Iwata :'(

KeptoKnight said:
1. By analogy, knowing what will happen does not mean that we are preventing or causing that thing to happen. The sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it to rise nor am I preventing it from rising by knowing that it will happen. Likewise, if I put a bowl of ice-cream and a bowl of cauliflower in front of my child, I know for a fact which one is chosen - the ice cream. My knowing it ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. My child is free to make a choice and knowing the choice has no effect upon her when she makes it. 

Part of the issue here is the nature of time. If the future exists for God even as the present does, then God is consistently in all places at all times and is not restricted by time. This would mean that time was not a part of His nature to which God is subject, and that God is not a linear entity; that is, it would mean that God is not restricted to operating in our time realm and is not restricted to the present only. If God is not restricted to existence in the present, our present, then the future is known by God because God indwells the future as well as the present (and the past). This would mean that our future choices, as free as they are, are simply known by God. Again, our ability to choose is not altered or lessened by God existing in the future and knowing what we freely choose. It just means that God can see what we will freely choose -- because that is what we freely choose -- and knows what it is.

Logically, God knowing what we are going to do does not mean that we can't do something else. It means that God simply knows what we have chosen to do ahead of time. Our freedom is not restricted by God's foreknowledge; our freedom is simply realized ahead of time by God. In this, our natural ability to make another choice has not been removed any more than my choice of what to write. Before typing the word "hello," I pondered which word to write. My pondering was my doing and the choice was mine. How then was I somehow restricted in freedom when choosing what to write if God knew what I was going to do? No matter what choice we freely make, it can be known by God, and His knowing it doesn't mean we aren't making a free choice.

2. Is God sovereign or do we have a free will?


When we talk about free will, we are usually concerned with the matter of salvation. Few are interested in whether we have the free will to choose salad or steak for our dinner tonight. Rather, we are troubled over who exactly is in control of our eternal destiny.

Any discussion of man’s free will must begin with an understanding of his nature because man’s will is bound by that nature. A prisoner has the freedom to pace up and down in his cell, but he is constrained by the walls of that cell and can go no further, no matter how much his will might desire it. So it is with man. Because of sin, man is imprisoned within a cell of corruption and wickedness which permeates to the very core of our being. Every part of man is in bondage to sin – our bodies, our minds, and our wills. Jeremiah 17:9 tells us the state of man’s heart: it is “deceitful and desperately wicked.” In our natural, unregenerate state, we are carnally minded, not spiritually minded. “For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be” (Romans 8:6-7). These verses tell us that before we are saved, we are at enmity (war) with God, we do not submit to God and His law, neither can we. The Bible is clear that, in his natural state, man is incapable of choosing that which is good and holy. In other words, he does not have the “free will” to choose God because his will is not free. It is constrained by his nature, just as the prisoner is constrained by his cell.

3. Conclusion:

There is no logical reason to claim that if God knows what choices we are going to make that it means we are not free. It still means that the free choices we will make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God. Furthermore, this knowledge by God does not alter our nature in that it does not change what we are -- free to make choices. God's knowledge is necessarily complete and exhaustive because that is His nature, to know all things. In fact, since He has eternally known what all our free choices will be, He has ordained history to come to the conclusion that He wishes including and incorporating our choices into His divine plan. Why?  Because God always knows all things: "...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things," - 1 John 3:20.

 On a side note: Libertarian free will, that a person is equally able to make choices between options independent of pressures or constraints from external or internal causes. Compatibilist free will holds that a person can choose only that which is consistent with his nature. Therefore, for example, a person who is a slave to sin (Rom. 6:14-20) and cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14) would not be able to choose God of his own free will because his free will doesn't have the capacity to contradict his nature. There is much debate on these issues and, depending on which side you lean, your interpretation of scripture will be affected.





Your post is debating against the belief that "God knows what we will do, thus, we have no free will". While I admire the effort you put into your post, you should know that I never followed that belief. I don't think we have free will, not becauae god knows what we will do, but because we don't control our actions.

A person's personality is determined by their environment and innate brain structure. When a person perceives something, the brain processes that information. You DON'T control this process. The brain is simply making evaluations in what it thinks is the best way. What determines what's best? Your brain does, based off of what it's learned through the environment and using skills it was born with. A person's actions are based off what they genuinely think is the best thing to do. People don't choose what's the best thing to do. It's only based off what they've learned. And people learn differently, not because they choose to, just because they've been through different experiences.

Here's an example for you. Let's say I could go back in time to when you were a newborn. Lets say I took your brain & soul and exchanged it with a seriel killer's brain & soul. So, you were placed in a seriel killer's body at birth. You would grow up seeing the exact same experience he saw. You would go through the exact same environment as the seriel killer.

My question to you would be this: Would you too grow up to be a seriel killer? If you answer yes, that you would be a seriel killer, then you must agree that a person's personality is determined by their environment. In this case, you can't control your personality.

If you answer no, that you would NOT be a seriel killer, then that means there must have been something innately different about your brain/soul. In this case, you also can't control your personality because it's determined by your innate traits. You can't control innate traits.

What is your answer?

BasilZero said:
Jay520 said:
BasilZero said:
No such thing as "Fair" in this world/dimension we live in, besides boredom isnt a legit excuse for not wanting to exist or whatnot.

I guess the saying "You wont know the value of what you had until you lose it" (or w/e the actual quote is/was) could come into this situation, unfortunately if it did occur, than I guess it wouldnt matter since you wouldnt exist o.O.

@WiiBox3 - I like your comment and agree with it ;o.


No such thing as fair in this universe? But God created it? So if God didn't create anything fair, he is not fair.

Yeah, it would matter.

Just because God created it , doesnt mean its guaranteed to be fair, nothing is perfect in this "World". What may be not fair to you may be considered fair to another person, say for an example a game designer making a really difficult game, do you think its unfair for him or her to make such a game?



Remember, we're talking about people that DON'T want to live forever. How is it fair that they are FORCED to live forever. Espescially considering they never asked God to create them. And it's all even worse when God KNEW that they wouldn't want to liive at all, let alone forever, yet he created them anyway.

Jay520 said:
KeptoKnight said:
1. By analogy, knowing what will happen does not mean that we are preventing or causing that thing to happen. The sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it to rise nor am I preventing it from rising by knowing that it will happen. Likewise, if I put a bowl of ice-cream and a bowl of cauliflower in front of my child, I know for a fact which one is chosen - the ice cream. My knowing it ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. My child is free to make a choice and knowing the choice has no effect upon her when she makes it. 

 

Part of the issue here is the nature of time. If the future exists for God even as the present does, then God is consistently in all places at all times and is not restricted by time. This would mean that time was not a part of His nature to which God is subject, and that God is not a linear entity; that is, it would mean that God is not restricted to operating in our time realm and is not restricted to the present only. If God is not restricted to existence in the present, our present, then the future is known by God because God indwells the future as well as the present (and the past). This would mean that our future choices, as free as they are, are simply known by God. Again, our ability to choose is not altered or lessened by God existing in the future and knowing what we freely choose. It just means that God can see what we will freely choose -- because that is what we freely choose -- and knows what it is.

Logically, God knowing what we are going to do does not mean that we can't do something else. It means that God simply knows what we have chosen to do ahead of time. Our freedom is not restricted by God's foreknowledge; our freedom is simply realized ahead of time by God. In this, our natural ability to make another choice has not been removed any more than my choice of what to write. Before typing the word "hello," I pondered which word to write. My pondering was my doing and the choice was mine. How then was I somehow restricted in freedom when choosing what to write if God knew what I was going to do? No matter what choice we freely make, it can be known by God, and His knowing it doesn't mean we aren't making a free choice.

2. Is God sovereign or do we have a free will?


When we talk about free will, we are usually concerned with the matter of salvation. Few are interested in whether we have the free will to choose salad or steak for our dinner tonight. Rather, we are troubled over who exactly is in control of our eternal destiny.

Any discussion of man’s free will must begin with an understanding of his nature because man’s will is bound by that nature. A prisoner has the freedom to pace up and down in his cell, but he is constrained by the walls of that cell and can go no further, no matter how much his will might desire it. So it is with man. Because of sin, man is imprisoned within a cell of corruption and wickedness which permeates to the very core of our being. Every part of man is in bondage to sin – our bodies, our minds, and our wills. Jeremiah 17:9 tells us the state of man’s heart: it is “deceitful and desperately wicked.” In our natural, unregenerate state, we are carnally minded, not spiritually minded. “For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be” (Romans 8:6-7). These verses tell us that before we are saved, we are at enmity (war) with God, we do not submit to God and His law, neither can we. The Bible is clear that, in his natural state, man is incapable of choosing that which is good and holy. In other words, he does not have the “free will” to choose God because his will is not free. It is constrained by his nature, just as the prisoner is constrained by his cell.

3. Conclusion:

There is no logical reason to claim that if God knows what choices we are going to make that it means we are not free. It still means that the free choices we will make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God. Furthermore, this knowledge by God does not alter our nature in that it does not change what we are -- free to make choices. God's knowledge is necessarily complete and exhaustive because that is His nature, to know all things. In fact, since He has eternally known what all our free choices will be, He has ordained history to come to the conclusion that He wishes including and incorporating our choices into His divine plan. Why?  Because God always knows all things: "...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things," - 1 John 3:20.

 On a side note: Libertarian free will, that a person is equally able to make choices between options independent of pressures or constraints from external or internal causes. Compatibilist free will holds that a person can choose only that which is consistent with his nature. Therefore, for example, a person who is a slave to sin (Rom. 6:14-20) and cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14) would not be able to choose God of his own free will because his free will doesn't have the capacity to contradict his nature. There is much debate on these issues and, depending on which side you lean, your interpretation of scripture will be affected.





Your post is debating against the belief that "God knows what we will do, thus, we have no free will". While I admire the effort you put into your post, you should know that I never followed that belief. I don't think we have free will, not becauae god knows what we will do, but because we don't control our actions.

A person's personality is determined by their environment and innate brain structure. When a person perceives something, the brain processes that information. You DON'T control this process. The brain is simply making evaluations in what it thinks is the best way. What determines what's best? Your brain does, based off of what it's learned through the environment and using skills it was born with. A person's actions are based off what they genuinely think is the best thing to do. People don't choose what's the best thing to do. It's only based off what they've learned. And people learn differently, not because they choose to, just because they've been through different experiences.

Here's an example for you. Let's say I could go back in time to when you were a newborn. Lets say I took your brain & soul and exchanged it with a seriel killer's brain & soul. So, you were placed in a seriel killer's body at birth. You would grow up seeing the exact same experience he saw. You would go through the exact same environment as the seriel killer.

My question to you would be this: Would you too grow up to be a seriel killer? If you answer yes, that you would be a seriel killer, then you must agree that a person's personality is determined by their environment. In this case, you can't control your personality.

If you answer no, that you would NOT be a seriel killer, then that means there must have been something innately different about your brain/soul. In this case, you also can't control your personality because it's determined by your innate traits. You can't control innate traits.

What is your answer?


Brain, Soul and Resiliency are critical subjects to cover.  Yes we may be born into a different environment but is upto us to make the choices including whom do we listen to and not. Within my belief God also places individuals in our lives so either we reject or not what they are saying. My INNATE traits is INFj yes I will always be wired that way, it will never change. We may fluctuate into the other trait but comes back to what you were wired since the begining.



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BasilZero said:
Jay520 said:
BasilZero said:
Jay520 said:
BasilZero said:
No such thing as "Fair" in this world/dimension we live in, besides boredom isnt a legit excuse for not wanting to exist or whatnot.

I guess the saying "You wont know the value of what you had until you lose it" (or w/e the actual quote is/was) could come into this situation, unfortunately if it did occur, than I guess it wouldnt matter since you wouldnt exist o.O.

@WiiBox3 - I like your comment and agree with it ;o.


No such thing as fair in this universe? But God created it? So if God didn't create anything fair, he is not fair.

Yeah, it would matter.

Just because God created it , doesnt mean its guaranteed to be fair, nothing is perfect in this "World". What may be not fair to you may be considered fair to another person, say for an example a game designer making a really difficult game, do you think its unfair for him or her to make such a game?



Remember, we're talking about people that DON'T want to live forever. How is it fair that they are FORCED to live forever. Espescially considering they never asked God to create them. And it's all even worse when God KNEW that they wouldn't want to liive at all, let alone forever, yet he created them anyway.


Like I said in my previous post, what makes you think is unfair might be just and fair for others especially in a other worldy being such as God. Just because you didnt want to be born/exist doesnt mean a creator is unjust, it just means your existence has meaning for something, what that something is, I dont know, it will be up to you on whatever decisions you make in your life, because in the end whatever you do will not only affect you but others as well.

Also wouldnt you agree that "Living" is just a child's term given to humans so they can relate to how they will exist in a afterlife, just because you are in a afterlife doesnt mean you are "living". You could probably be burning in hell, co-existing in heaven, or being in a endless abyss sleeping for all eternity and dreaming of another world or whatever other afterlifes there are out there.



Okay, maybe I'm not explaining myself well enough. If Jack doesn't want a conscious, isn't it unfair that a just God would make him have one? This isn't subjective. It's not a matter of opinion. Mary may want to live, but she can still understand Jack's situation. And she can still understand why it's not fair that's he's forced into something he didn't ask for & doesn't want to be in. I'm not asking is it unfair that we are all giving a conscious. I'm asking is it unfair that those who don't want one are giving it forever. This should have easily been avoided since God is supposedly just and he knows what these people want.

lol why would you ever want to stop existing? Part of the comfort of being religious is knowing you'll live forever.

I remember one kid asked something along those line, wouldn't you get bored if you were sitting around living for eternity. The teacher answered him that Heaven is different from our lives on Earth, and that people didn't get bored there (for some reason), same thing with 'going to the bathroom", people don't have to "go" there, it's just different - - - That's literally what he said :p



miz1q2w3e said:
lol why would you ever want to stop existing? Part of the comfort of being religious is knowing you'll live forever.

I remember one kid asked something along those line, wouldn't you get bored if you were sitting around living for eternity. The teacher answered him that Heaven is different from our lives on Earth, and that people didn't get bored there (for some reason), same thing with 'going to the bathroom", people don't have to "go" there, it's just different - - - That's literally what he said :p

... I don't quote get it my friend, you go to the bathroom when you have to take a piss etc, how does it relate? O.o

Plus, how can you not get bored eventually? Even if I got to stare at gorramn hot ladies all day & night without getting tired, there is a point at which you've had enough...



KeptoKnight said:


Brain, Soul and Resiliency are critical subjects to cover.  Yes we may be born into a different environment but is upto us to make the choices including whom do we listen to and not. Within my belief God also places individuals in our lives so either we reject or not what they are saying. My INNATE traits is INFj yes I will always be wired that way, it will never change. We may fluctuate into the other trait but comes back to what you were wired since the begining.



And what decides those choices? Us? So you think people willingly choose to be wicked? When they know the consequences? I don't think so. A person's entire perspective of the world is limited to ...well...their perspective. Their doing what they think is the best thing to do.

I don't know what INFj is.

If our environment & our innate traits aren't the only factors of personality, what else is there?

And you didn't answer the question. Would you be a seriel killer?

Basil, If a person does not want eternal life, a just, fair, all-knowing, and most of all, loving God should understand his feelings and act accordingly. I don't quite understand how you could disagree here.