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Forums - Politics - Iran says could hit U.S. if it came under attack: paper

leatherhat said:
Kantor said:
Jumpin said:
If Iran has to give up its nukes, then the US should give up theirs as well.

The USA is, at least nominally, a democracy, which has signed the non-proliferation treaty, is not engaged in any wars against a nation, and serves to gain nothing by nuclear bombing its neighbours or, indeed, any other country. Furthermore, it has possessed nuclear weaponry for the last 68 years and has not dropped a nuclear bomb for the last 67. The last time it dropped an atomic bomb, it was engaged in a war which could not possibly be ended any other way (without a great deal of bloodshed on both sides).

Iran is a rogue state which has openly threatened the existence of other states, a dictatorship known for renegade actions, which holds strong grudges against many of its neighbours and feels that its existence is threatened.

There is an enormous difference between the two countries.


The united states is at war with two nations. And has fought numerous wars of aggresion over the past fifty years. Iran is at war with no one and has fought only one defensive war against Iraq. 

Iran doesn't gain anything from nuking its neighbors besides being destroyed by Israels arsenel (which has seconde strike abilities) 

America is the only country to drop a bomb on another country, so thats kind of a hard spin you're trying to make. 

Iran's existenec is threatened, or have you missed the Israeli/ American war drums? 

Also its rogue government exists because of backlash against the unites states installed dictator. 

The best counter example is India/Pakistan which were at each others throats and fought numerous wars before they both became armed- after which they never went to war again because they both know where it would lead. A nuclear armed Iran would lead to a check on Israeli aggresion in the Middle East and a more stable diplomatic Middle East as a whole. 

Yeah, Iran is not an aggresive nation.  They are simply acting in their own interest, because like many other countries, they do not like it when the US and other countries get involved in their affairs and tell them what they can and cannot do.  How would we like it if China told us we weren't allowed to have nukes anymore, and threatened a blockade in the Gulf of Mexico? 



 

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sperrico87 said:

Yeah, Iran is not an aggresive nation.  They are simply acting in their own interest, because like many other countries, they do not like it when the US and other countries get involved in their affairs and tell them what they can and cannot do.  How would we like it if China told us we weren't allowed to have nukes anymore, and threatened a blockade in the Gulf of Mexico? 


We are not an Authoratative Theocracy that espouses the destruction of whole nations in our regular rhetoric.  We do not fund terrorist groups in many of our neighboring countries (not officially, but drug users in this country do technically fund the Mexican Cartels and they are terrorists). 

Your comparison holds no water sir.   Should we have nuclear weapons?  Yes, we should.  The survivors of WWII deserve to be able to protect themselves with merely the threat of Nuclear Annihilation, but nothing else.   The US, Russia, China, Britain, and France have too much to lose to actually use Nuclear weapons anymore.  Infact, the Cold War stayed luke warm because the US and the USSR had so many nukes that any direct conflict would be unwinnable.  Nuclear Weapons are horrible things, no doubt, but war is horrible, individual people can be horrible, and lead by the wrong despot, whole populations can become horrible mobs.  Look at the actions of Germans during WWII, Germany isn't an evil nation, and Germans are no more likely to be evil than anyone else, but lead by the wrong person, people can be lead to evil that would be unimaginable by themselves.  This is my fear for Iran, not that the people are bad, but their ruler is a self proclaimed voice of God, and citizens that actually believe him can be lead to unthinkable acts of cruelty and injustice in the name of God.  This has happened throughout history, across every culture, religion, and race.  Right now the situation just happens to find itself in Iran, ironically one of the oldest civilizations on Earth, finding itself once again ruled by a despotic mad man with the "voice of God" in his ear. 

And to those who aren't aware, Ahmadinejad holds no true power in Iran, everything goes through the Supreme Ruler Ayatollah Seyed Ali Hosseini Khamenei. So dont play the "They are a Democracy too" because they are not, they are less of a Democracy than Russia. 



Plezbo said:
sperrico87 said:

Yeah, Iran is not an aggresive nation.  They are simply acting in their own interest, because like many other countries, they do not like it when the US and other countries get involved in their affairs and tell them what they can and cannot do.  How would we like it if China told us we weren't allowed to have nukes anymore, and threatened a blockade in the Gulf of Mexico? 


We are not an Authoratative Theocracy that espouses the destruction of whole nations in our regular rhetoric.  We do not fund terrorist groups in many of our neighboring countries (not officially, but drug users in this country do technically fund the Mexican Cartels and they are terrorists). 

Your comparison holds no water sir.   Should we have nuclear weapons?  Yes, we should.  The survivors of WWII deserve to be able to protect themselves with merely the threat of Nuclear Annihilation, but nothing else.   The US, Russia, China, Britain, and France have too much to lose to actually use Nuclear weapons anymore.  Infact, the Cold War stayed luke warm because the US and the USSR had so many nukes that any direct conflict would be unwinnable.  Nuclear Weapons are horrible things, no doubt, but war is horrible, individual people can be horrible, and lead by the wrong despot, whole populations can become horrible mobs.  Look at the actions of Germans during WWII, Germany isn't an evil nation, and Germans are no more likely to be evil than anyone else, but lead by the wrong person, people can be lead to evil that would be unimaginable by themselves.  This is my fear for Iran, not that the people are bad, but their ruler is a self proclaimed voice of God, and citizens that actually believe him can be lead to unthinkable acts of cruelty and injustice in the name of God.  This has happened throughout history, across every culture, religion, and race.  Right now the situation just happens to find itself in Iran, ironically one of the oldest civilizations on Earth, finding itself once again ruled by a despotic mad man with the "voice of God" in his ear. 

And to those who aren't aware, Ahmadinejad holds no true power in Iran, everything goes through the Supreme Ruler Ayatollah Seyed Ali Hosseini Khamenei. So dont play the "They are a Democracy too" because they are not, they are less of a Democracy than Russia. 


I don't require a lecture on Ahmedinejad, as I am fully aware that he has little real power in Iran. But I would be remiss if I didn't point out that he's not a bad guy.  The western media paints him as an evil dictator who is hell-ben on destroying Israel, but nothing could be further from the truth. 

And if we are allowed to have nuclear weapons, then we have no right to tell another nation they also cannot have them.  Israel doesn't deserve special treatment in the middle east.  They are dependent on us for money and weapons, and it is at their peril, because one day, our politicians will come to their senses and stop playing favorites with foreign countries.  Israel should sink or swim on their own merits.  If they want to bomb someone, then they should be allowed to do so without asking the US for permission.  If it goes badly for them, then they should suffer the consequences.  All foreign aid is an abomination, whether it's to Israel, Pakistan, Sudan, or Egypt.

There are waaaaay too many people living in western Europe and North America who have a distorted view of the world.  The distortion comes not only from our media, but from deliberate propoganda techniques employed by our government.  It is not our obligation to run the world and shape it in our image.   We would be under far less threat from "foreign enemies" if we didn't lob cruise missles at whomever we pleased, killing hundreds or thousands of innocent people in the process.



 

sperrico87 said:
Plezbo said:
sperrico87 said:

Yeah, Iran is not an aggresive nation.  They are simply acting in their own interest, because like many other countries, they do not like it when the US and other countries get involved in their affairs and tell them what they can and cannot do.  How would we like it if China told us we weren't allowed to have nukes anymore, and threatened a blockade in the Gulf of Mexico? 


We are not an Authoratative Theocracy that espouses the destruction of whole nations in our regular rhetoric.  We do not fund terrorist groups in many of our neighboring countries (not officially, but drug users in this country do technically fund the Mexican Cartels and they are terrorists). 

Your comparison holds no water sir.   Should we have nuclear weapons?  Yes, we should.  The survivors of WWII deserve to be able to protect themselves with merely the threat of Nuclear Annihilation, but nothing else.   The US, Russia, China, Britain, and France have too much to lose to actually use Nuclear weapons anymore.  Infact, the Cold War stayed luke warm because the US and the USSR had so many nukes that any direct conflict would be unwinnable.  Nuclear Weapons are horrible things, no doubt, but war is horrible, individual people can be horrible, and lead by the wrong despot, whole populations can become horrible mobs.  Look at the actions of Germans during WWII, Germany isn't an evil nation, and Germans are no more likely to be evil than anyone else, but lead by the wrong person, people can be lead to evil that would be unimaginable by themselves.  This is my fear for Iran, not that the people are bad, but their ruler is a self proclaimed voice of God, and citizens that actually believe him can be lead to unthinkable acts of cruelty and injustice in the name of God.  This has happened throughout history, across every culture, religion, and race.  Right now the situation just happens to find itself in Iran, ironically one of the oldest civilizations on Earth, finding itself once again ruled by a despotic mad man with the "voice of God" in his ear. 

And to those who aren't aware, Ahmadinejad holds no true power in Iran, everything goes through the Supreme Ruler Ayatollah Seyed Ali Hosseini Khamenei. So dont play the "They are a Democracy too" because they are not, they are less of a Democracy than Russia. 


I don't require a lecture on Ahmedinejad, as I am fully aware that he has little real power in Iran. But I would be remiss if I didn't point out that he's not a bad guy.  The western media paints him as an evil dictator who is hell-ben on destroying Israel, but nothing could be further from the truth. 

And if we are allowed to have nuclear weapons, then we have no right to tell another nation they also cannot have them.  Israel doesn't deserve special treatment in the middle east.  They are dependent on us for money and weapons, and it is at their peril, because one day, our politicians will come to their senses and stop playing favorites with foreign countries.  Israel should sink or swim on their own merits.  If they want to bomb someone, then they should be allowed to do so without asking the US for permission.  If it goes badly for them, then they should suffer the consequences.  All foreign aid is an abomination, whether it's to Israel, Pakistan, Sudan, or Egypt.

There are waaaaay too many people living in western Europe and North America who have a distorted view of the world.  The distortion comes not only from our media, but from deliberate propoganda techniques employed by our government.  It is not our obligation to run the world and shape it in our image.   We would be under far less threat from "foreign enemies" if we didn't lob cruise missles at whomever we pleased, killing hundreds or thousands of innocent people in the process.

I wouldn't be so sure.

Various Europian coutnries have mostly stayed out of such affairs, yet is just as hard a target.

The west, for all intents and purposes makes a GREAT scapegoat.

Which countries like Iran quite honestly need.  There is a fairly strong revolution movement among the "intellectulists" and young people, mostly only held back by scapegoating the west.

Which by the way is a great reason for Iran to NOT have nuclear weapons.  Not so much that they won't use them, but like North Korea, they are a dictorial power that could fall well withn two generations... during which, who knows what happens to said weapons they have.

The only reason russian cold war nukes were mostly safe was due to the general ignorance around them where anybody else who wanted them didn't know how to handle them.



Kantor said:
Jumpin said:
If Iran has to give up its nukes, then the US should give up theirs as well.

The USA is, at least nominally, a democracy, which has signed the non-proliferation treaty, is not engaged in any wars against a nation, and serves to gain nothing by nuclear bombing its neighbours or, indeed, any other country. Furthermore, it has possessed nuclear weaponry for the last 68 years and has not dropped a nuclear bomb for the last 67. The last time it dropped an atomic bomb, it was engaged in a war which could not possibly be ended any other way (without a great deal of bloodshed on both sides).

Iran is a rogue state which has openly threatened the existence of other states, a dictatorship known for renegade actions, which holds strong grudges against many of its neighbours and feels that its existence is threatened.

There is an enormous difference between the two countries.


The Korean War was ended by the threat of nuclear force, hardly the responsible use of the American nuclear arsenal. Also, the only reason that the US dropped atomic bombs on Japan was to prevent the Soviet invasion. This simply prevented Russia from establishing another Red State in order to give America a better position in the looming Cold War. Even though the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended the war there is no way to justify targeting civilian populations when the same effect could have been achieved by striking locations of military importance. Iran abandoned its nuclear program years ago and there is no evidence that they have resumed this program. Considering all of the talk of preemptive strikes and the arsenal of nuclear warheads currently within Isreal, I can see no moral high ground being rightfully taken by the Western World. Sure, Iran is ruled by a religious, oppressive regime but there are many other out there. It is times like this I am reminded of a joke:

 

CIA: Hey America, Iraq has been bullying Iran and Kuwait!

America: Let's get 'em!

CIA: Hey America, China is pushing around Tibet!

America: umm...



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Plezbo said:
sperrico87 said:

Yeah, Iran is not an aggresive nation.  They are simply acting in their own interest, because like many other countries, they do not like it when the US and other countries get involved in their affairs and tell them what they can and cannot do.  How would we like it if China told us we weren't allowed to have nukes anymore, and threatened a blockade in the Gulf of Mexico? 


We are not an Authoratative Theocracy that espouses the destruction of whole nations in our regular rhetoric.  We do not fund terrorist groups in many of our neighboring countries (not officially, but drug users in this country do technically fund the Mexican Cartels and they are terrorists). 

Your comparison holds no water sir.   Should we have nuclear weapons?  Yes, we should.  The survivors of WWII deserve to be able to protect themselves with merely the threat of Nuclear Annihilation, but nothing else.   The US, Russia, China, Britain, and France have too much to lose to actually use Nuclear weapons anymore.  Infact, the Cold War stayed luke warm because the US and the USSR had so many nukes that any direct conflict would be unwinnable.  Nuclear Weapons are horrible things, no doubt, but war is horrible, individual people can be horrible, and lead by the wrong despot, whole populations can become horrible mobs.  Look at the actions of Germans during WWII, Germany isn't an evil nation, and Germans are no more likely to be evil than anyone else, but lead by the wrong person, people can be lead to evil that would be unimaginable by themselves.  This is my fear for Iran, not that the people are bad, but their ruler is a self proclaimed voice of God, and citizens that actually believe him can be lead to unthinkable acts of cruelty and injustice in the name of God.  This has happened throughout history, across every culture, religion, and race.  Right now the situation just happens to find itself in Iran, ironically one of the oldest civilizations on Earth, finding itself once again ruled by a despotic mad man with the "voice of God" in his ear. 

And to those who aren't aware, Ahmadinejad holds no true power in Iran, everything goes through the Supreme Ruler Ayatollah Seyed Ali Hosseini Khamenei. So dont play the "They are a Democracy too" because they are not, they are less of a Democracy than Russia. 


America doesn't fund terrorism? Did I read that right? What do Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia, Venezuela, El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala have in common? All of these nations were U.S. client states that employed death squads during the cold war. That's right, the Caravan of Death, Grupo Colina and countless other death squads which killed hundreds of thousands of people were all sponsored by the U.S. The Dirty War, Salvadoran Civil War, Guatemalan Civil War and many others were in America's best interests and no atrocity was too much. The aforementioned crimes would be enough to make Stalin blush and that's only America's Cold War involvement in Latin America. How about we discuss the weaponized Anthrax deployed by America in the Rhodesian Bush War, was that not terrorism on a monumental scale? No other nation has such an appalling human rights record, not even the Germans have as much to be ashamed of.



bouzane said:
The Korean War was ended by the threat of nuclear force, hardly the responsible use of the American nuclear arsenal. Also, the only reason that the US dropped atomic bombs on Japan was to prevent the Soviet invasion. This simply prevented Russia from establishing another Red State in order to give America a better position in the looming Cold War. Even though the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended the war there is no way to justify targeting civilian populations when the same effect could have been achieved by striking locations of military importance. 

This is just how war was fought back then.  Ask China if they liked how entire cities and villages were murdered by the Japanese.  We could have conventionally bombed Japan, but the results would have been no better.  And the nukes were not to keep the Soviets from invading, they were to stop us from having to invade.  Estimates are that we would have lost 1 million soldiers invading Japan and subduing the populace.  Due to the mass Suicides on Saipan and Guam, we werent't even sure if there would be a Japanese nation left if we invaded and had to fight til the last man standing.   The Nukes, while terrible, ended up saving millions of lives at the cost of several hundred thousand.  If this seems callous, war is horrible, Japan brought that war upon itself by invading sovereign nations and attacking US land.  

The fact is that we have a nuclear arsenal, and it is here to stay.  If we got rid of all of our nuclear weapons, the North Koreas and Irans of the world could hold everyone hostage with a single bomb.  North Korea understands now that if it uses nuclear weapons it is doomed.  They keep their small supply because they are paranoid and backward and believe it is the only thing keeping America and SK from invading. 

Your worldview is idealist, and you should be proud of it, never lose that.  Unfortunately it is also very naive.  



bouzane said:

America doesn't fund terrorism? Did I read that right? What do Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia, Venezuela, El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala have in common? All of these nations were U.S. client states that employed death squads during the cold war. That's right, the Caravan of Death, Grupo Colina and countless other death squads which killed hundreds of thousands of people were all sponsored by the U.S. The Dirty War, Salvadoran Civil War, Guatemalan Civil War and many others were in America's best interests and no atrocity was too much. The aforementioned crimes would be enough to make Stalin blush and that's only America's Cold War involvement in Latin America. How about we discuss the weaponized Anthrax deployed by America in the Rhodesian Bush War, was that not terrorism on a monumental scale? No other nation has such an appalling human rights record, not even the Germans have as much to be ashamed of.


MY god you have no idea what you are talking about.  

Stalin killed 20 million+ of his own citizens, Mao Zedong killed over 50 million, America has NEVER come anywhere close to this in its entire existence.  If you truly want to know the Country with the worst human rights record, that would be the British Empire, pre World War II the crown held 1/4 of the world in virtual slavery.  You espouse such vitriol towards the United States, but you have no facts to back it up.  You state that the US was responsible for "hundreds of thousands of deaths" how is that worse than tens of millions?  Grow up, hyperbole has no place in a factual debate.  



Plezbo said:
bouzane said:

America doesn't fund terrorism? Did I read that right? What do Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia, Venezuela, El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala have in common? All of these nations were U.S. client states that employed death squads during the cold war. That's right, the Caravan of Death, Grupo Colina and countless other death squads which killed hundreds of thousands of people were all sponsored by the U.S. The Dirty War, Salvadoran Civil War, Guatemalan Civil War and many others were in America's best interests and no atrocity was too much. The aforementioned crimes would be enough to make Stalin blush and that's only America's Cold War involvement in Latin America. How about we discuss the weaponized Anthrax deployed by America in the Rhodesian Bush War, was that not terrorism on a monumental scale? No other nation has such an appalling human rights record, not even the Germans have as much to be ashamed of.


MY god you have no idea what you are talking about.  

Stalin killed 20 million+ of his own citizens, Mao Zedong killed over 50 million, America has NEVER come anywhere close to this in its entire existence.  If you truly want to know the Country with the worst human rights record, that would be the British Empire, pre World War II the crown held 1/4 of the world in virtual slavery.  You espouse such vitriol towards the United States, but you have no facts to back it up.  You state that the US was responsible for "hundreds of thousands of deaths" how is that worse than tens of millions?  Grow up, hyperbole has no place in a factual debate.  

What makes the human rights record of USA worse is that it's very concealed and people have no idea whats going on behind the scenes and the main point is that America is'nt the best nation for this and so should'nt threaten other countries. USA is also the only other country to use DU and nuclear weapons in recent times like in Iraq - Fallujah. If theres any country who should have nukes its USA. 



                                  

Plezbo said:
bouzane said:
The Korean War was ended by the threat of nuclear force, hardly the responsible use of the American nuclear arsenal. Also, the only reason that the US dropped atomic bombs on Japan was to prevent the Soviet invasion. This simply prevented Russia from establishing another Red State in order to give America a better position in the looming Cold War. Even though the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended the war there is no way to justify targeting civilian populations when the same effect could have been achieved by striking locations of military importance. 

This is just how war was fought back then.  Ask China if they liked how entire cities and villages were murdered by the Japanese.  We could have conventionally bombed Japan, but the results would have been no better.  And the nukes were not to keep the Soviets from invading, they were to stop us from having to invade.  Estimates are that we would have lost 1 million soldiers invading Japan and subduing the populace.  Due to the mass Suicides on Saipan and Guam, we werent't even sure if there would be a Japanese nation left if we invaded and had to fight til the last man standing.   The Nukes, while terrible, ended up saving millions of lives at the cost of several hundred thousand.  If this seems callous, war is horrible, Japan brought that war upon itself by invading sovereign nations and attacking US land.  

The fact is that we have a nuclear arsenal, and it is here to stay.  If we got rid of all of our nuclear weapons, the North Koreas and Irans of the world could hold everyone hostage with a single bomb.  North Korea understands now that if it uses nuclear weapons it is doomed.  They keep their small supply because they are paranoid and backward and believe it is the only thing keeping America and SK from invading. 

Your worldview is idealist, and you should be proud of it, never lose that.  Unfortunately it is also very naive.  


how can you not regret dropping nukes on japan. btw idk if you know but you didnt meantion the birth defects still occuring today due to radiation. also its not true that it was the last choice, japan was willing to surrender  with conditions - its just that the americans chose a miltary choice and not a diplomatic one.