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Forums - Politics - Iran says could hit U.S. if it came under attack: paper

Warning to everyone in this thread: I've given out two moderations for flaming in this thread already. Don't let this turn into a flamewar. Have and defend your own opinions, but respect the opinions of others (that means no calling people idiots for disagreeing with you), and don't frame your opinions in an offensive way (for example, by stating sweepingly that all Americans are brainwashed warmongering morons).



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

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Kantor said:
Millenium said:
Kantor said:
Jumpin said:

.

The USA was the first country in the world to obtain a nuclear weapon and therefore the first to be able to use it without fear of response in kind. Had Iran acquired a bomb before Israel, you could be certain that it would be used.

Yes, American foreign policy is very questionable, but that doesn't extend to dropping nukes. Perhaps this is a personal bias because Britain is practically America's closest ally in the world, but I do feel safer in a world in which America has a nuclear bomb.

If we could get rid of nukes entirely, that would be brilliant, but I definitely wouldn't want North Korea, China, Russia and the like possessing nuclear weapons whilst America didn't.

As for Libya, honestly you can't fault America for intervening there because:

a) It was really secondary to Britain and France there

b) Everyone was screaming at America to get involved.

Things always look different in retrospect. Iraq was always unpopular, but there was overwhelming support for invading Afghanistan initially, as there was for invading Libya.


Plus, like you said before the Nuclear bombing was pretty much needed in WW2.  Now, I was against Iraq and Libya, and indifferent to afghanistan....

but what people who bag on the US for using nukes in WW2 forget is... well history.

Japan only surrendered because after the first two attacks, the thought we had 100 more due to torture of a guy who didn't know anything and lied to stop torture.

Every other scenario... including just a blockade of Japan would of cost more Japanese lives then the nukes, and more japanese civilian lives. (Not that I think that is why they did that, but it's worth noting.)

Japan actually recovered so fast and had it's "Economic Miracle" largely thanks to how fast and how quickly the US moved, saving tons of people on the brink of starvation. 


People often argue the japanese would of surrendered anyway, but they really don't get the mindset that was at work.  Members from the peace faction of the government called the atomic bombs "A gift from heaven".

Can you imagine how messed up a situation you have to be in, with no chance of surrender for you to say two bombs wiping out ENTIRE cities of your own people are a "Gift from Heaven."

I mean, imagine what kind of awful situation you'd have to be in where you'd think two of your cities being destroyed was a good thing.

 

Sadly the dropping of the atomic bombs was the most "moral" outcome that could be made.  Faced with the same choices today, you'd choose the atomic bombings time and time again, unless your a fan of more people on all sides and more innocents dieing just for some weird sake of honor or not having the stigma of being the only country to use nukes on another.



Did Millenium get banned for this? I hope not, while he resorted to personal attacks, I did hope he would provide a lucid reply to my request of him to think about what was happening on the ground in Libya. It's only temporary right?



i guess world war 3 is inevitable



Cant we all just get along :)

Btw first post



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Plezbo said:
Did Millenium get banned for this? I hope not, while he resorted to personal attacks, I did hope he would provide a lucid reply to my request of him to think about what was happening on the ground in Libya. It's only temporary right?


Expires the 12th.



Lybia is certainly less stable now than when Gadaffi was in charge. But stability under a tyrant is hardly that great of a thing (though I do suspect that the Somalians would be happy for any stability at all).



Rath said:
Lybia is certainly less stable now than when Gadaffi was in charge. But stability under a tyrant is hardly that great of a thing (though I do suspect that the Somalians would be happy for any stability at all).

Sounds like the same excuses I hear about Iraq honestly.

I hope Libya works out, but I look at Egypt and wonder...



Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
Lybia is certainly less stable now than when Gadaffi was in charge. But stability under a tyrant is hardly that great of a thing (though I do suspect that the Somalians would be happy for any stability at all).

Sounds like the same excuses I hear about Iraq honestly.

I hope Libya works out, but I look at Egypt and wonder...


Well the comparison isn't exactly the same. For some reason the comparison was between Libya before the Arab spring to Libya after the toppling of Gadaffi - ignoring the Libyan people rising up and Gadaffi about to almost certainly slaughter them in the thousands. Libya was already unstable when the West intervened.



BasilZero said:
Man why cant these people worry about their own nations and look forward to improving the economy worldwide...

Because the world doesn't work like that.  Give a Dictator the Suedatenland, he will take France.   Bully Strongmen can't be left to their own devices because eventually they will cause world level problems that will ruin world economies.  Ghadafi's brutal crackdown on demonstrations in Libya paralyzed the entire country's economy.  We live in a time where you can not have whole countries not contributing to the world market, it slows everything down and brings prices way up.  True, worldwide economic prosperity can never come until everyone lives in freedom.  Now, we can't go around just bombing people into freedom, but when a nation rises up against a totaltarian dictator, and begs for our help.  Than it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the powers of freedom to answer the call and deliver those crying voices from devestation.   What happens next needs to be up to them, we can't force people into Democracy (Look at Afghanistan).  However, lending a hand should never be confused with forcing a boot (Libya we lent help, Iraq we just said 'fuck it, you're getting Democracy now'.  

It comes down to what is right, and what is easy.  Doing nothing is easy, but it is not always right.  Sometimes it is the right thing to do.  A populace has the right to overthrow their government if that government is not following the will of the people.  However, we shouldn't force, or instigate an uprising if we can avoid it.  Those who wish to isolate themselves from the problems of the world will always sound like they have valid points, but this is not a seperate world any longer.  True evil really happens when good men do nothing to stop it.  We must always stay vigilant in the face of evil (and laying seige to your own city is decidedly EVIL) and fight for freedom lest it slowly be torn from our grasp.