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Forums - Sony - Rumour: PS4 to feature AMD GPU a gen ahead of nextbox

Viper1 said:
Skeeuk said:

IT WOULD HAVE TO HAVE BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY

fail move otherwise, if chipset is completly different could they not emulate?


Emulating PowerPC with an X86 chip is nasty.

eh... no :) look at dolphin-emu or apple's rosetta. *but* emulating the ps3 is absolutely no option - ppc + 6 ppu's to be emulated, also the graphics-chip. not to mention the whole system itself, reconstructing busses etc.

definitely not gonna happen.



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walsufnir said:
Viper1 said:
Skeeuk said:

IT WOULD HAVE TO HAVE BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY

fail move otherwise, if chipset is completly different could they not emulate?


Emulating PowerPC with an X86 chip is nasty.

eh... no :) look at dolphin-emu or apple's rosetta. *but* emulating the ps3 is absolutely no option - ppc + 6 ppu's to be emulated, also the graphics-chip. not to mention the whole system itself, reconstructing busses etc.

definitely not gonna happen.

I wouldn't say it's not an option.
Emulation on the PC is very different from that of the consoles as the instruction sets and architectures are vastly different.
If Sony goes with PowerPC again and the instructions sets between the CPU architectures are backwards compatible, then that is allot of overhead that is saved as you don't need to interpret the code for the new architecture.

Converesely if Sony goes with Fermi or Graphics Core next, the GPU can actually handle some of the compute tasks traditionally handled by the processor.
The main problem though that I see is of a threaded nature, however the SPE's in the Cell are fairly basic, so emulating a couple of the SPE cores on a proper core could be possible provided IPC has increased a fair bit. (Which isn't to be unexpected, the Cell is old, and it's an in order architecture.)
However, that would still require a fair amount of software engineering, in that regard Sony isn't Microsoft and doesn't have the software engineers Microsoft has, so whether they will go down that road remains to be seen.




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VGKing said:
Mummelmann said:

I still remember a few choice words from console gamers that made me laugh last night. "PC gaming is so complicated and its nothing but patches and fixes and internet stuff going wrong. Consoles are easy, you pop in the game and play."

Well, I was going to play Gran Turismo 5 on my PS3 last night, I hadn't played it for several months. Here's what happened step-by step;

<snip>

Add to the list; unfinished games that don't work at all (Skyrim), lousy ports and crossplatform development, steep pricing, poor online, horribly long development times, cancelled projects left and right, shitty action games and ruining of entire genres to please adolescent kids, expensive games and accessories and an interface that wants to make your hair gray and you have yourself a merry time indeed.

If next generation goes anything like this one, I might actually do something I have never done before; sit the entire console generation out and stick to PC only.


Whose fault is that?

If I were you I'd at least keep up with PS3 firmware updates. If you hear there is a new one then turn your PS3 on and download it.

I still can't belive you haven't been on your PS3 since the PSN hack. Wow. You are blaming your PS3 for you not updating it.....

Yes console gaming has taken a lot of the bad parts of PC gaming such as patches and updates. We know. We don't need any more like upgradable grahphics cards..that would be hell.

Stick to your PC gaming. I have no idea why someone like you is on VGChartz since we don't track PC game sales very well. It is console focused site.


I don't really get why you're here either. Mostly every thread I see you post in, you insult people left and right and behave like a douche a load of the time.

 Seriously, what makes you think "Mummelman made a proper post from a different viewpoint, I'll just be a complete arse to him!". Mummelman is one of the best posters here, and I'd say you could learn quite a bit from him in how to behave.

How bloody hard is it exactly to talk with people in a polite and civil manner?

(I see the slight irony of this post being rather negatively loaded, but that's deliberate to make a point)



Pemalite said:
walsufnir said:
Viper1 said:
Skeeuk said:

IT WOULD HAVE TO HAVE BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY

fail move otherwise, if chipset is completly different could they not emulate?


Emulating PowerPC with an X86 chip is nasty.

eh... no :) look at dolphin-emu or apple's rosetta. *but* emulating the ps3 is absolutely no option - ppc + 6 ppu's to be emulated, also the graphics-chip. not to mention the whole system itself, reconstructing busses etc.

definitely not gonna happen.

I wouldn't say it's not an option.
Emulation on the PC is very different from that of the consoles as the instruction sets and architectures are vastly different.
If Sony goes with PowerPC again and the instructions sets between the CPU architectures are backwards compatible, then that is allot of overhead that is saved as you don't need to interpret the code for the new architecture.

Converesely if Sony goes with Fermi or Graphics Core next, the GPU can actually handle some of the compute tasks traditionally handled by the processor.
The main problem though that I see is of a threaded nature, however the SPE's in the Cell are fairly basic, so emulating a couple of the SPE cores on a proper core could be possible provided IPC has increased a fair bit. (Which isn't to be unexpected, the Cell is old, and it's an in order architecture.)
However, that would still require a fair amount of software engineering, in that regard Sony isn't Microsoft and doesn't have the software engineers Microsoft has, so whether they will go down that road remains to be seen.


of course, sony *could* still rely on ppc but this does not change the spe's. there are 6 of them, clocked at 3,2 ghz, with a peak performance of 201 gflops (sp). so either they still go with ppc and cell or no BC.

and yes, it would be technically possible to emulate the ps3 but sony would have to spend a *lot* of time in it and the games would still not be playable :)

btw - to emulate an *snes* cycle-accurate you need a recent powerhorse... (google für bsnes).



disolitude said:
Thats great but which GPUs are we talking about exactly? I'd take a 6970 over 7750 any day :)


The AMD Radeon 6970 is better than the 7750. That chip is better than the 7850, but the cost of it is about $400 dollors more are less.  You can buy the 7770  about $160 dollars. 
 

That said, If Sony use the 7770 chip and still support a Hard Drive, it's more likely they can have another $600 dollar console.  That's why I believe Sony will not support backward compatability because it will cause a uproar if it don't have Blu-Ray.



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If true then this combines every failure of modern console gaming. An over reliance on the razor blade business model, extremely high game development costs, mandatory Internet access to launch your games and a lack of backwards compatibility. The idea of having my games locked to a single PSN account is just the cherry on top of the crap cake. If this is all true then Sony can count me out.



foxtail said:
VGKing said:
disolitude said:
VGKing said:
disolitude said:

Here is a way for Microsoft and Sony to sell gazillion next gen consoles and come out at affordable price point and still satisfy the power/performance hungry users.

Launch Xbox 720/PS4 with lower tier hardware and 299 price point. All current gen and next gen games are compatible with it, with next gen games running 30 fps and 720p.

However allow enthusiasts to SLI/Crossfire 2 their consoles together for hefty performance boost. Making next gen games 1080p and up to 60 FPS with other goodies like dual screen support.

You want power, fork out 600 bucks and buy 2 consoles. Problem solved.


UGH. No. That whole point of a console is to avoid stuff like that. There's a reason PC gaming isn't mainstream..its too complicated and you never know if your computer is up to date and able to run that new game at good speeds.

There is nothing complicated about it.

Nintendo 64 had the RAM cart which you was essentially the same thing as did Sega Saturn. An add on which you connect to make existing games look better.

You know as a kid I did have that RAM thing. It came with the Donnkey Kong game right?
I never really knew what is was for.

Anyway the N64 was not the most successful of consoles. A lot of bad decisions made on with that console. The RAM thing is one of them.

It also hurt sales of games that required the RAM pack to play the games. 

Just compare games that didn't require the RAM to the latter that did:

Zelda: Ocarina of Time 7.60 million to Zelda: Majora's Mask 3.36 million.

GoldenEye 007 8.09 million vs Perfect Dark 2.52 million

There were other factors, but still, having to buy something extra to play a game contributed negatively with regards to sales.

Thats because Nintendo were stupid and they made those games non playable on non upgraded consoles. Resident Evil 2 on n64 was a great example of a game that plays fine on regular n64 but runs at twice the res for backgrounds if RAM pack is added.

No one is saying next gen games shouldn't run on every console. Just saying that for them to satisfy the people that want the 1080p 60fps experience and keep the price low my idea of linking 2 consoles together would probably be the best option.



walsufnir said:

 

and yes, it would be technically possible to emulate the ps3 but sony would have to spend a *lot* of time in it and the games would still not be playable :)

Look people, it is really very simple. Either Sony keeps the cell architecture reasonably intact with the next processor, or they go Intel/AMD.

There is no x64 processor in the world capable of emulating the cell at even remotely the speed of the PS3 cell. The cell has a PPU and 7 SPUs, each having its own ram. That fact alone creates a complete mess for a multicore processor with unified cache, let alone the fact that each SPU in a cell is a highly efficient calculator that matches the performance of an x64 core.

It is interesting that with every passing day, rumours make the next XBox/PS3 more powerful (and hence more expensive) than the previous rumour of the day. Fact is that the next CPUs will be roughly twice as fast at most than the current ones. This is basically set in stone by thermal and financial constraints posed on consoles. You will never see 8core CPUs and AMD79xx/Nvidia680 GPUs.

I still think that a new cell processor with 3PPUs/8 SPUs or 2PPUs/12 SPUs, with reduced clock speeds, would have been the best solution for the PS4. Manufactured in 32nm, it would be a same die-size, same thermal constraints chip as it is now, completely backard compatible. Even without changing the PPU/SPU design (thus saving a maximum of development costs), and adding a modified 6850 40nm GPU, this setup would be fast enough to drive 1080p screens. With multiple PPU cores, even the lazy developers unable to efficiently use SPUs would be able to get there no problem. If Sony really believed AMD ("Our 2012 CPU will beat the crap out of Intel- so go with us" (that turd really turned out well....) then it's good night for them.



walsufnir said:
Viper1 said:


Emulating PowerPC with an X86 chip is nasty.

eh... no :) look at dolphin-emu or apple's rosetta. *but* emulating the ps3 is absolutely no option - ppc + 6 ppu's to be emulated, also the graphics-chip. not to mention the whole system itself, reconstructing busses etc.

definitely not gonna happen.

Geez, if you want to talk about emulating the PowerPC 750 from 2001 then yes, it's not so difficult.  But we're looking a little more modern here.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

Solid-Stark said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
I personally don't see the big deal about BC. Whenever I buy a new console I play newer games on it. If I ever do go back I simply plug in my old one.


True, but it's convenient or a luxury that's nice to have. One of the reasons I bought a PS3 early was because it was BC; PS2 with PS1; I loved my Wii when I had it because I was able to play GC games on it. Nintendo's portables and so on. That's just me though.

A non BC PS4 would allow me to wait till it drops in price and I'm able to buy it with more than a few games. I'm sure Sony,and even M$ and Ninty would want people to adapt to their new consoles sooner rather than later. Again, that's just me.


Personally I don´t wanna my living room crowded with console systems. It´s impractible and aesthetically not pleasing. Also I agree with Solid-Stark. It´s a luxury that´s nice to have. Its great to have a powerful machine that can play past generations of the same brand. Just hope Sony give us consumers the Backwards Compability we want with both Blu-Ray and PSN titles.