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Do you think fate exists?

Yes 8 17.39%
 
No 16 34.78%
 
It's very likely 2 4.35%
 
It's not likely 10 21.74%
 
I have no idea 3 6.52%
 
See results 7 15.22%
 
Total:46
MrBubbles said:
only one thing can happen in any instance. so you might as well consider that event as an unavoidable fact since nothing else can happen at that time.

Relativity would like to have a word with you on that.

Your common sense is all right for most human applications, but extending it to the grandness of the universe is simply too bold (even the theories of today will probably be seen as only approximated models in the future).

Say there are events A and B. To one observer moving at a certain speed in a certain direction, A and B will happen at the same time. To another, A will happen before B, and yet to another, B will occur before A (as long as they are not causally related, that is if A causes B, then everyone will see A causing B in that order). Simultaneity is relative. And this is not an optical illusion, that is what really occurs when the observes move at very fast speeds (relative to the speed of light). And yet, all of them are correct. If simultaneity were to hold, we would have a bunch of paradoxes that we couldn't solve. Look up the ladder paradox if you're more interested.



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TheLivingShadow said:
kanageddaamen said:
given the same placement and velocities of particles, whether 10 of them or a googleplex of them, the exact same thing will happen every time.

This statement is perfect as an example of how common sense is invalid for science. In this case, scientific knowledge also provides insight into philosophical arguments.

You can never know the exact position and velocity of a very small object at the same time. This is called Heisenberg's Principle, and it's one of the fundamental principles of quantum theory. Thus, there is no way that you can have the same placement and velocity of the particles, that is fundamentally impossible. You can come up with good approximations, sure, and the bigger a particle is, the much more likely that the approximation is correct.

Another thing is that a chaotic system is deterministic by definition, but it's almost impossible to predict what will happen because of the nature of the system. Therefore, in the theoretical rewinding of time, a chaotic system (note this is not necessarily the real world) will give the same result every single time. However, chaos doesn't explain very small objects accurately.

 

***

 

I've finished the small science sermon. Now I'd like to put it into application. The cells that make decisions in our body (brain, spine, etc.) do so by sending information to other cells. This information is carried by electrons. Electrons behave probabilistically. Therefore, free will is not an illusion in the sense of which you speak of it, however it doesn't exactly mean one can do as one pleases, as one will probably do as the neurons tell one to do. If a human can't overcome the immediate desires of the body (being happy, eating, cheating to get ahead, etc. all for their own well-being), then a human isn't really free in my opinion; though I think I'm deviating too much now.

I am aware of  Heisenberg's , but its irrelevant to the topic.  I am speaking abstractly.  

1.) Suspend laws of physics
2.) poof in 1000 particles with known positions and velocities
3.) start laws of physics
4.) Observe behavior
5.) Repeat

Step 4 will be the same if you use the same values in step 2 every time.  It doesn't matter if it is impossible for humans to measure or know those values acurately, all that matters is that the values are set even if they are not measured.

 

And only PARTS of electron's actions behave probabilistically, their motion along a conductor does not.  If it did, electronics would not work, and the entire electrical engineering science would collapse. 



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TheLivingShadow said:
Zkuq said:
Depends on how you define 'fate'. I believe the universe is completely deterministic even though we may not be able to measure it accurately. I do know that quantum mechanics involves lots of randomness but I also believe it's not because the universe is random but because we just can't measure it accurately enough. That said, I have practically no faith in 'fate' in religional/supernatural/whatever sense.

What you say makes sense, except that quantum mechanics doesn't say that. It says that it's fundamentally probabilistic. Nobody inside the universe can measure all properties with exact accuracy, no matter how advanced the technology they use to measure.

Just as a thought though, what if one is outside the universe? Does this hold true then? Of course there's no way to scientifically arrive at conclusions on this, but see what you think.

Maybe I'll change my mind once I learn more about the nature of quantum mechanics and stuff but until then, I'm going to believe what I've already said.

Also, I'm not going to answer your question. I thought about it for a while (and a bunch of other more or less related stuff as well) and now I'm pretty confused. Sorry, can't think about it even a bit more right now. :P



kanageddaamen said:
TheLivingShadow said:
kanageddaamen said:
given the same placement and velocities of particles, whether 10 of them or a googleplex of them, the exact same thing will happen every time.

This statement is perfect as an example of how common sense is invalid for science. In this case, scientific knowledge also provides insight into philosophical arguments.

You can never know the exact position and velocity of a very small object at the same time. This is called Heisenberg's Principle, and it's one of the fundamental principles of quantum theory. Thus, there is no way that you can have the same placement and velocity of the particles, that is fundamentally impossible. You can come up with good approximations, sure, and the bigger a particle is, the much more likely that the approximation is correct.

Another thing is that a chaotic system is deterministic by definition, but it's almost impossible to predict what will happen because of the nature of the system. Therefore, in the theoretical rewinding of time, a chaotic system (note this is not necessarily the real world) will give the same result every single time. However, chaos doesn't explain very small objects accurately.

 

***

 

I've finished the small science sermon. Now I'd like to put it into application. The cells that make decisions in our body (brain, spine, etc.) do so by sending information to other cells. This information is carried by electrons. Electrons behave probabilistically. Therefore, free will is not an illusion in the sense of which you speak of it, however it doesn't exactly mean one can do as one pleases, as one will probably do as the neurons tell one to do. If a human can't overcome the immediate desires of the body (being happy, eating, cheating to get ahead, etc. all for their own well-being), then a human isn't really free in my opinion; though I think I'm deviating too much now.

I am aware of  Heisenberg's , but its irrelevant to the topic.  I am speaking abstractly.  

1.) Suspend laws of physics
2.) poof in 1000 particles with known positions and velocities
3.) start laws of physics
4.) Observe behavior
5.) Repeat

Step 4 will be the same if you use the same values in step 2 every time.  It doesn't matter if it is impossible for humans to measure or know those values acurately, all that matters is that the values are set even if they are not measured.

 

And only PARTS of electron's actions behave probabilistically, their motion along a conductor does not.  If it did, electronics would not work, and the entire electrical engineering science would collapse. 

That is the thing though! That's what I'm trying to argue! It's not that it's impossible for us to know, it is that it's impossible for your proposition to happen under the laws of physics. If you suspend the laws of physics, it is impossible to talk about anything in my opinion, because we're all in the universe. If the universe were such that there may be somehow observers outside the universe (e.g. God or something like that), then these observers are not bound by the laws of physics (since they only apply to the universe) and then I guess determinism could make sense. Note that your argument is true only if there can be observers outside the universe. Since we can never know this, determinism can't be proven.



I only say suspend the lays of physics so that you can set a known set of values. The deterministic nature of the universe exists REGARDLESS of observers. We are not talking about observations. We are talking about the laws of physics, which hold eve in the absence of observers. F= ma; d = 1/2at^2+vt+c; e=mc^2, these are all true regardless of observers. We are not arguing whether an observer can determine what the future is, only that since laws exists, there can be no deviation from those laws. Observers do not play a role whatsoever



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kanageddaamen said:
I only say suspend the lays of physics so that you can set a known set of values. The deterministic nature of the universe exists REGARDLESS of observers. We are not talking about observations. We are talking about the laws of physics, which hold eve in the absence of observers. F= ma; d = 1/2at^2+vt+c; e=mc^2, these are all true regardless of observers. We are not arguing whether an observer can determine what the future is, only that since laws exists, there can be no deviation from those laws. Observers do not play a role whatsoever

I disagree; however, it appears that no ammount of argument I can make will convince you, and viceversa, so I will let this rest.

But I will say one more thing, the laws of physics can change. The second law of thermodynamics is, after all, not always true, just the absurdly grand majority of the time. That an event 'happens' is relative.



kanageddaamen said:
TheLivingShadow said:
kanageddaamen said:
given the same placement and velocities of particles, whether 10 of them or a googleplex of them, the exact same thing will happen every time.

This statement is perfect as an example of how common sense is invalid for science. In this case, scientific knowledge also provides insight into philosophical arguments.

You can never know the exact position and velocity of a very small object at the same time. This is called Heisenberg's Principle, and it's one of the fundamental principles of quantum theory. Thus, there is no way that you can have the same placement and velocity of the particles, that is fundamentally impossible. You can come up with good approximations, sure, and the bigger a particle is, the much more likely that the approximation is correct.

Another thing is that a chaotic system is deterministic by definition, but it's almost impossible to predict what will happen because of the nature of the system. Therefore, in the theoretical rewinding of time, a chaotic system (note this is not necessarily the real world) will give the same result every single time. However, chaos doesn't explain very small objects accurately.

 

***

 

I've finished the small science sermon. Now I'd like to put it into application. The cells that make decisions in our body (brain, spine, etc.) do so by sending information to other cells. This information is carried by electrons. Electrons behave probabilistically. Therefore, free will is not an illusion in the sense of which you speak of it, however it doesn't exactly mean one can do as one pleases, as one will probably do as the neurons tell one to do. If a human can't overcome the immediate desires of the body (being happy, eating, cheating to get ahead, etc. all for their own well-being), then a human isn't really free in my opinion; though I think I'm deviating too much now.

I am aware of  Heisenberg's , but its irrelevant to the topic.  I am speaking abstractly.  

1.) Suspend laws of physics
2.) poof in 1000 particles with known positions and velocities
3.) start laws of physics
4.) Observe behavior
5.) Repeat

Step 4 will be the same if you use the same values in step 2 every time.  It doesn't matter if it is impossible for humans to measure or know those values acurately, all that matters is that the values are set even if they are not measured.

 

And only PARTS of electron's actions behave probabilistically, their motion along a conductor does not.  If it did, electronics would not work, and the entire electrical engineering science would collapse. 

Electronics works due to the correspondence principle. Quantum physics on mass averages out to classical mechanics. A single electron moves probabilistically along a conductor - often it will move in the wrong direction - however the average of the movement of a large number of electrons moves in the direction given by classical physics.

 

If you did this.

1.) Suspend laws of physics
2.) Poof in a single radioactive particle
3.) start laws of physics
4.) Observe behavior
5.) Repeat


You would not get the same point in time in which the radioactive particle decays every time



@OP

To 1: If you rewound time and let it play out again the result would be different. Like you already said you are aware of quantum theory. But are you aware that the quantum theory actually works and affects not only subatomic particles but even atoms.

There are particle that arent just at one point but actually are at multiple points and were they really end up cant be said for sure. Also nuclear decay cant be predicted all those factors which are uncertain and play out sometimes differently will have a significant impact on the world if they are slightly different Billions of years ago.

Quantum theory is the best physical theory we have tested millions of times and never failed. A deterministic world seems unlikely but aslong as we dont have a perfect theory it cant be ruled out.

To 2: If quantum theory is right then no.



No, humans have free will, they make their own fate



very interesting topic that i can't put into words to answer.