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Forums - Politics - Anyone watching the debates?

mrstickball on 20 October 2011
PDF said:
mrstickball said:

You want evidence? Look at the laws passed by both parties in the past 10 years:

  • Who passed more federal education requirements via No Child Left Behind? Who authored the bill? Who ratified it?
  • Who passed more federal health care via Medicare Part D? Who authored it? Who signed it into law?
  • Who passed the Patriot Act?

The reality is that the dichotomy between Obama and Bush isn't as far as you'd think. Obama is about as pro-war as Bush is, with a little bit more leftist economic policies. But the chasm is not as far as you'd think.

Go take a look at PoliticalCompass.org's chart of US & European leaders. They do a great job scoring all candidates on where they actually stand in opposition to one another. McCain was only about 1.5pts away from the center of the Democrat nominees.

Compatatively, then you have guys like Mike Gravel, Dennis Kucinich, and Ron Paul who are actual ideologues that are likely better representatives of what politics should be - something that isn't always center-right or right.


Your chart doesnt impress.  I always disliked that poltical compass chart as it is poorly made imo.   I understand their are hipocrisy between both parites that make them seem closer.  The Differences are not extreme but still substantial.

Socially:  

Dems-  Little government involvement.  More social freedoms.  Such as abortion, and gay marriage.

Republicans - More government involvement.  Making laws stoping certian things.  ^^^^

Libertian:  Little Gov involvement - Pauls general stance - sides more with the dems

Economically:

Dems - Government involvement.  Regulations on corporations, more gov aid for people

Republicans - Little Gov. involvment.  Less taxes, Less regulations, and gov programs.

Libertian: Little Gov. involvement - Pauls Stance - Sides more with republicans.

You can argue all day what a REAL republican is but a chart doesnt decide that.  The active party does.


Not quite like you'd think.

Both parties can want nore government involvment socially, and economically. For example, Dems push hate speech legislation which is certainly a social issue. Likewise, Republicans can push for more government involvment via subsidies such as all Big Ag. Additionally, I mentioned things that the Republicans championed under Bush such as Medicare Part D and No Child Left Behind which were big government intrusions into the economy and created larger government. So its not as different as you think. Both parties blame each other, but they are the side of the same coin. That is why government has grown so incredibly under Bush AND Obama. Look up the numbers... Both are horrible in regards to regulations and government invovlment.



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Allfreedom99 on 21 October 2011
mrstickball said:
Allfreedom99 said:
mrstickball said:
Oh, shocker:

Herman Cain said on Piers Morgan's show last night that he is pro-choice.

I think he needs to clarify what he was saying, but if you watch the video he said earlier that his personal beliefs are 100% pro life in any circumstance and that life begins at conception, but he appears to have taken a position of no government involvement in the matter.

Right. And if your stance is no government involvement, that'd qualify him as pro-choice.

Looks like Cain's campaign gave a response:

Cain’s campaign issued a statement later Thursday saying Cain’s answer was focused on whether he as president would “order” people not to seek an abortion.

“The president has not constitutional authority to order any such action by anyone,” he said. “That was the point I was trying to convey.”

“As to my political policy view on abortion, I am 100 percent pro-life. End of story,” he said, adding that he will appoint judges who are anti-abortion.

“I will oppose government funding of abortion,” he said. “I will veto any legislation that contains funds for Planned Parenthood. I will do everything that a president can do, consistent with his constitutional role, to advance the culture of life.”



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/20/attacked-by-rivals-herman-cain-clarifies-abortion-stance/#ixzz1bRKxbxa9

 

From what I read it appears that Cain's stances on Abortion may be similar to Ron Pauls.

From his website:

At the same time, Ron Paul believes that the ninth and tenth amendments to the U.S. Constitution do not grant the federal government any authority to legalize or ban abortion. Instead, it is up to the individual states to prohibit abortion.

http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/abortion/




Kantor on 21 October 2011
PDF said:
mrstickball said:


Not quite like you'd think.

Both parties can want nore government involvment socially, and economically. For example, Dems push hate speech legislation which is certainly a social issue. Likewise, Republicans can push for more government involvment via subsidies such as all Big Ag. Additionally, I mentioned things that the Republicans championed under Bush such as Medicare Part D and No Child Left Behind which were big government intrusions into the economy and created larger government. So its not as different as you think. Both parties blame each other, but they are the side of the same coin. That is why government has grown so incredibly under Bush AND Obama. Look up the numbers... Both are horrible in regards to regulations and government invovlment.

A lot of what Bush did is not supported by current republicans.  No child left behind is much more a social issue imo than an economical one.  Even though it does affect both.  The government tends to grow under either party in time of crisis.  9/11 and economic recession, Cold War scares,  Depression, WW2, Civil War.   The way each party grows the government is often different.

I am not arguing that dems and reps are not close in an overall view.  

Communism --------- Socialism -----------(Dems - Reps) ---------------Statist ----------------Facist

But when only focused on our two party system they greatly differ on a number of issues.  I gave a general overview which in most issues are correct but that is not to say they dont flip flop strangely on some positions.  Even when they do flip for more or less government the other party does the same, once again making them more different.

What i argued against is the idea that Romney and Perry are not Republicans, while Paul is.  That is obsurd.    

I do not fault Paul for sticking to a much stronger idealogical stance while Republicans and Democrats flip ideals on some issues if it better suits them and their constiuents.

That scale is nonsense. You're mixing together two things into one. Socialism and Communism go hand in hand with statism and do not contradict fascism.

On the economic axis: Communism - Socialism - Centre (Democrat) - Capitalism (Republican) - Anarcho-Capitalism (Ron Paul)

On the social: Anarchism - Liberalism (Democrat, Ron Paul) - Centrism (Mitt Romney) - Authoritarianism (Republican) - Fascism

That said, you are absolutely right to say that everyone standing for the Republican nomination is a Republican. Moreover, none of them comes close to representing the Republican party under Abraham Lincoln 150 years ago, nor really the party of the 50s under Dwight Eisenhower. It has moved right on both axes. Ron Paul has remained one of only a few "libertarians" left in the party (the word is in inverted commas because he is by no reasonable definition a libertarian, just a slightly more socially liberal Republican).



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NinjaguyDan on 21 October 2011
Mr Khan said:
999 will just lead to lower income groups paying more and higher income and big business paying less. It's the perfectly contrived plan: an easy way to appeal to the Greed class without looking like you're directly pandering to them

Closing down loopholes is fine and dandy, but it has to go in a way that is still progressive

 

 

Doesn't look like such a good deal to me.  The whole plan is full of "used food".



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MARCUSDJACKSON on 21 October 2011

you mean to say Republicans are actually debating now instead of bashing the president and looking stupid!



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