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Forums - Politics - Herman Cain: It is your fault you are not rich...

sethnintendo said:

I'm not rich because I don't care to be rich. I only care to make enough to be able to live semi-comfortably. I'd also like to start my career in the wildlife field and actually use my college degree.  One can't become rich working a wildlife job nor do I care.  I just want a job that I enjoy.  Materialism is what I strive to stay away from. To try and show off does nothing. There will always be someone richer that will look down on you and there will always be someone poorer that will be jealous. The American dream isn't my dream.

I like and agree with this sentiment.

Also if that guy came over to the UK and said the same thing, he would be forced out of the country. However, that is because the banking system and collapsed worked in a different way to how it did in America. That doesn't mean I like the guy or his party however.



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Agreed. There is always a way to get rich. If you can't do it in a legal way (most people can't), do it in an illegal way, there are lots of tricks to get away with it.



richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
Galaki said:
To get rich quick, you don't play the rules.

That depends on what the rules are.  Rich people play by different rules than the average hard working joe.  Didn't say the rules they play by are illegal, just different rules.  The system is written to benefit people accumulating wealth and getting ahead on the top.

That wouldn't mean they were playing by different rules.

Also I wouldn't say the rules are written that way, so much as, that's just how reality is.

I mean, for example, school systems are built so smart people have an easier time getting good grades. 

It would take different rules for different people  to make things not that way if anything.  Hell we already have rules written against the rich and it still hasn't changed that way (ex. tax code).

I said rules, and not laws, for a reason.  The are rules they follow, which benefit them, and which average people don't follow.  On the Law front, the tax code is structured to benefit the rich.  If you incorporate, you take out your expenses before being taxed.  The average joe has taxes out and their expenses are ignored.  There are deductions, but they are fewer.  Special interests and other groups with money, also write in tax breaks, get subsidies, and other advantages.  And when the financial system broke down, it wasn't the average joe that got bailed out, it was banks, and other corpoprations, that got bailed out, like the auto industry.  The average joe is used as a meat shield, to scare politicians that they might just get offed unless they get bailed out.

Also, take the case where top executives get contracts that pay them money if they are kicked out.  They get millions of dollars.  The average joe doesn't get those.  They get downsized, and little if any money involved at all towards them.  They also don't often get sign-on bonuses either.  People on top get these.

How many individuals incorporate exactly?

I mean, we were talking about the rich here right?

The Wallstreet movement has mostly been complaining about the individual rich.

Now your comparing companies with individuals.  Which seems like a strange thing to do.

Aside from which, the average joe CAN buy into these companies... any average joe that did hold stock did get bailed out, no?  It just seems to support my "more people should be in the stock market" theory.

Anyone who is well off, will likely get adviced by their accountant to incorporate themselves, and set up a business, in order to change how they are taxed, and keep their taxes as low as possible.

As far as why the comparison, someone said that rich people pretty much cheat to get where they are.  I commented to that by saying people who are rich play by different rules than people that aren't.  This is what I was commenting on.  Individuals incorporate themselves.  And it was in response to this quote:

Galaki said:
To get rich quick, you don't play the rules.

I think you have it backwords... if they incorporate as an intependent contractor it's so their buisness pays less taxes.

If you own your own single person company your still taxed on everything you pay yourself at the regular rate.

You yourself aren't incorporated.  If you say, default on your morgage, you can't protect yourself via your corporation.


The "Tax benefits" are that you aren't taxed on anything kept in the company to increase the buisness of the company....

and anyone who has like a thousand bucks at most can do it if they really want to.



Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:

Anyone who is well off, will likely get adviced by their accountant to incorporate themselves, and set up a business, in order to change how they are taxed, and keep their taxes as low as possible.

As far as why the comparison, someone said that rich people pretty much cheat to get where they are.  I commented to that by saying people who are rich play by different rules than people that aren't.  This is what I was commenting on.  Individuals incorporate themselves.  And it was in response to this quote:

Galaki said:
To get rich quick, you don't play the rules.

I think you have it backwords... if they incorporate as an intependent contractor it's so their buisness pays less taxes.

If you own your own single person company your still taxed on everything you pay yourself at the regular rate.

You yourself aren't incorporated.  If you say, default on your morgage, you can't protect yourself via your corporation.


The "Tax benefits" are that you aren't taxed on anything kept in the company to increase the buisness of the company....

and anyone who has like a thousand bucks at most can do it if they really want to.

And I was saying here that someone making a lot of money will end up incorporating themself, usually as an LLC, for a number of reasons, to obtain benefits from the legal and tax code that non-corporations don't face.  You then structure your income and so on, in the form of a business, and maximize the tax code benefits.  There are ways to do that, and people with money will do this.

What one can do, if rich and incorporate, is put the house in the name of the business.  This is done to take advantage of the tax code, as I stated before.  Again, the rich play by different rules than everyone else, as I said before:

http://www.llc-made-easy.com/how-to-incorporate.html

It doesn't make much sense for an average joe, living paycheck to paycheck to do this, but the person with money, it does.



mrstickball said:

Doesn't change the fact that we have to pay the piper for our actions. When you do stupid things like wrack up needless debt via mortgages, credit card debt, and student loans, you will have to pay as well as those that live off of your purchases.

Consumer spending will plummet, builders will get laid off, and colleges will go without students. But the reality is that in doing such, our economy would grow in other ways that would make society better. Many pine about the 'good 'ol days' of the middle class, without realizing the sacrifices a generation took to get where they were in terms of income equality - it wasn't something that someone waved a magic wand and it happened... It took sacrifice, something our society at large doesn't understand.

And lets face it, many nations impacted by this such as China do deserve it. They've forced one-party solutions on their fellow countrymen and have de-valued their currency to make it more attractive for the American consumer gravy train. Its partially their fault for this mess, and they will pay the piper too.

When a small percentage of people do something and suffer, it is their problem alone.  When it ends up being something done on a mass level that will impact everyone, at that point, it is time that the problem be look at nationwide, and figure the best way around it to minimize the suffering, and figure out ways to have society not suffer in the future.

I have a tribute to this stupidity in a form of a battery powered rodent that sings Don't Step on My Blue Suede Shoes I picked up on a clearance table at a clothing store.  I call it Mal in honor of the series of mal-issues American culture faces due to the mass stupidity above.  So, the issue may be, fine, my mistake I got here.  But how about how to get out of it?  Anyone want to argue, "Tough luck, nothing can do.  Just don't loot, and die in misery so the few who weren't impacted can live in peace"?  If not, then need to do more.



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The rent is to god damn high! No matter how much you make weekly, the rent is to god damn high!!!



deskpro2k3 said:

The rent is to god damn high! No matter how much you make weekly, the rent is to god damn high!!!


Depends on where you live.

Where I live - its pretty darn cheap for a 2br/1ba apartment. I charge about $450 including trash and water. That is about 33% of a person's takehome pay if they were making minimum wage in America.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

richardhutnik said:
badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:
Why weren't the parents of Herman Cain rich?
http://www.hermancain.com/about

He had a father who worked 3 jobs. Why wasn't his father able to get rich working 3 jobs? Is it possible that it is very unlikely one gets rich working a job?

Good question. Why would a black man in 1940s Georgia not be obscenely wealthy...? Hmmmm, nope. I can't think of any reasons.

Remember, the premise is, "if you aren't rich, it is your fault".  So, the ONLY reason why someone isn't rich, is because of government?

Seriously? Did Cain make this statement about the South in 1940s? Of course not. He's making a statement about current times. Disagree all you want, but your responses to these posts are poor.



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outlawauron said:
richardhutnik said:
badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:
Why weren't the parents of Herman Cain rich?
http://www.hermancain.com/about

He had a father who worked 3 jobs. Why wasn't his father able to get rich working 3 jobs? Is it possible that it is very unlikely one gets rich working a job?

Good question. Why would a black man in 1940s Georgia not be obscenely wealthy...? Hmmmm, nope. I can't think of any reasons.

Remember, the premise is, "if you aren't rich, it is your fault".  So, the ONLY reason why someone isn't rich, is because of government?

Seriously? Did Cain make this statement about the South in 1940s? Of course not. He's making a statement about current times. Disagree all you want, but your responses to these posts are poor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

That was a prior argument, that somehow, the laws were why someone couldn't make it. That would be about it.  So, is that what you are saying, that the laws alone were the only problem, or the entire culture of the time interfered?

I stand by what I said.  The argument Cain made was that everyone is self-made and that everyone CAN get rich, and there is no excuse why it doesn't happen.  It is all TOTALLY up to the person.  If one says if someone doesn't get rich, it is their fault, then it means neither the government, nor the cultural environment, NOTHING should prevent anyone from getting rich... period.

There were also African Americans who did get wealthy, during that time period, and under Jim Crow laws:

http://blackentrepreneurshalloffame.blogspot.com/2006/07/black-innovators-and-entrepreneurs.html

 

The great black creators and entrepreneurs both historically and currently are too numerous to mention. For example, Garrett Morgan was an innovator and manufacturer who invented both an efficient gas mask and the automatic traffic signal. During a long business career, Morgan manufactured clothing, hair products and his gas mask. In the 1920s, he was a key founder of the Cleveland Call, one of the most successful black newspapers in the Midwest. Dr. Percy Julian, an organic chemist, developed a new method of synthetically producing cortisone and, in the 1950s, established Julian Laboratories in Oak Park, Illinois. In a few years Julian’s company grew to be a widely successful pharmaceutical company, which he sold in 1961 for well over two million dollars. Dr. Charles Drew pioneered new techniques in the preservation of blood plasma that were instrumental in saving the lives of countless soldiers during World War Two. 

In terms of purely business success, the list is equally impressive. Arthur G. Gaston started his business career in 1923 by founding a burial service in Alabama to guarantee blacks a decent funeral. By 1932 it had grown large enough to be incorporated. Gaston started the Booker T. Washington Business College in 1939 and the Brown Belle Bottling Company in 1946, offering Joe Louis Punch. He followed these successes with a motel in 1954, an investment firm in 1955, a savings and loan association in 1957, a senior citizens home in 1963 and two radio stations in 1975. In 1986, at the age of 94, he opened the A. G. Gaston Construction Company. Gaston was a consummate self-made man, who overcame Jim Crow laws among other obstacles to eventually bring in more than $20 million in annual revenue. Named Black Enterprise magazine’s “Entrepreneur of the Century,” Gaston’s lifelong principle can serve as the credo of American entrepreneurship: “Money has no color. If you can build a better mousetrap, it won’t matter whether you’re black or white. People will buy it.”

 

 

If you want to say someone managed to do it on their own, and can do it, and it is someone's fault if they aren't, and you can show that people happened to do it under the worst conditions, either you then say that it was either luck (factors out of their control) or their own fault, period.  If you start saying that an individual didn't become rich, because of Jim Crow laws of a bigotted condition, then you have to say that there is a luck element which means that you can't say anyone who isn't rich, isn't rich because it is there fault.

So, in the case of Herman Cain's father, it is VERY likely his lack of formal education, and business training and temperment to be a business man, in addition to Jim Crow laws and the cultural climate resulted in him not becoming rich.  Do you care to argue that if Herman Cain's father were alive today, he would of become rich working 3 jobs?



mrstickball said:
deskpro2k3 said:

The rent is to god damn high! No matter how much you make weekly, the rent is to god damn high!!!


Depends on where you live.

Where I live - its pretty darn cheap for a 2br/1ba apartment. I charge about $450 including trash and water. That is about 33% of a person's takehome pay if they were making minimum wage in America.

Sorry, Jimmy overrules you... because he has been autotuned.  Having your point autotuned overrules anyone counter-point that hasn't been...