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Forums - Politics Discussion - Herman Cain: It is your fault you are not rich...

ImJustBayuum said:
Kasz216 said:


A) Not everyone has the knowledge or skill to move up or start their own buisness... but everyone has the oppurtunity and ability to get that knowledge and skill.

B)  That's why you commute to work from cheaper outter areas.  The problem isn't that we don't want to pay workers fairly... it's that we don't want to pay workers fairly because the value of many kinds of labor is very low to the point of it being seen as below what we would like to see people work.  Most people who are getting paid minium wage crazy enough are getting overpaid, that's why minium wage exists.  So companies are forced to overpay for labor because we think people should deserve a minium amount of money for their time even if their time isn't worth that in market value.

C) Except it's a lot harder to be a CEO then it is to be a worker.  It's hard as hell to find a good CEO to the point where you can make a bunch of money on the pretext of being good... while as you said... there are more then enough workers.  Either here or another country.

The problem has nothing to do with the rich, and everything to do with labor being so cheap.  Back in the day, quality intellegent america labor was worth a LOT,  now it isn't.

Why?  It ain't got nothing to do with companies... it's got everything to do with consumers. 

Nobody wants to pay a premium for quality labor and quality products anymore.   Everyone would rather by the cheap Wal-mart style brands... or when they do buy expensive brands in stuff like shoes, it's for the look, not the quality.

We're moving from a Labor intensive value market to an info/knowlege intensive market.

I heard today the top 5-6 tech companies employ less people then 1/3rd the workforce of GM in the 1980's.

The middleclass isn't shrinking because of corporate greed or anti-middleclass laws or anything like that.

The middle class is shrinking because the old middleclass jobs aren't viable anymore, and the new middleclass jobs don't support as many people and require more thinking.

@bolded

There is and always will be a differential market.Why? Because there is something called VALUE. Value is not just about quality labour. For example, Low valued, overpaid labour can still produce products that sells at a premium because a lot of customers see value in them, and still make more profit than selling at low cost. Their quality may not be premium, but their prices certainly are. These companies set their prices according to maximum value instead of the old price setting  "cost + mark-up" where the lower the cost the higher the profit. Consumers are not naive to base their buying decisions on cost only, even in this tough economic environment.  Is  it wrong to challenge these bigwigs to seek more value, innovative products instead of just slashing labour or attacking the minimum wage legislations.


Yes, yes it is wrong, because they are doing that.  It just doesn't always succeed and is hard to do.

The differential market practically doesn't exist because there aren't enough people in it anymore.

Let me ask you a question, have you ever tried to buy American?

Shit ain't made in america anymore because the companies that DID make american made products have all basically gone out of buinsess...  If you were trying to buy american you'd know that as you see the brands go out of buisness and the buy american websites getting sparser and sparser in content.

It's not that companies "didn't want" to do it.  The market just isn't there. 

 

While people talk a good game, and are willing to hold up some signs.... nobody is willing to make any real sacrifices to achieve their goals.

If you want to pay your workers high wages and give them good plans you HAVE to be better then everyone.... and not in perceived value but in ACTUAL value.

Hell, look at the History of Ben and Jerry's... still leftwing in message, but their workplace treatment numbers have STEADILY declined because despite having some amazing icecream, people are less and less willing to pay for it... and no amount of new flavors is changing that.

That's why Ben had to sell out to a big corporation.  (Or was it jerry, i forget, one of them i believe left before.)


Your dead wrong when you say the oppurtunity is out there... because the corporations DID try and had been for a long time, then somewhere in the middle of the Clinton presidency these products just disapeared, and if you hadn't noticed, it was right about the same time people were talking about how big wal-mart was becoming and how wal-mart was killing mom and pop stores with it's low prices made from overseas products.

Except it wasn't Wal-mart killing them, or the american worker.

It was the American Consumer.  If the differential market was big enough to be serviced it would be.

If not by a major corporations, then by niche corporations, they used to exist in huge numbers producing american made good's in factories made by americans paid good wages, some still do, but very few.

They've all died off because that marketshare has died off.

I know, because I've actually tried to buy american before, and buy better valued products that let their workers live better lives.  It's something I picked up from my dad, who won't even use the self checkout lines at Grocery stores and home depots because as he rightfully says "They steal jobs from cashiers."

Hell 9 times out of 10 he won't even use an ATM, or an ATM card for thse reasons.

His kind if few and far between though, and we're the worse for it.

Corporations live only to service the market and it's customers and make sales.  Corporations, espiecally in this age where i can find out where nearly every product a company sells is made... are nothing more then a reflection on our society.

Corporations that are "evil", are largely evil because we WANT them to be.  All the advantage of exploited labor but with the added benfit of getting to be upset about it, because we can blame the evil corporations without taking any stock about what we actually buy and how it effects the ecosystem.

I mean how many people complain about evil corporations but use an Iphone that was made in a factory in China where people are forced to work 16 hour shifts (including children), and crammed into rooms on cots in the dozens to sleep acting practically like slaves?

Actions speak louder then words, and in reality... protests are nothing but words.



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Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:

CEOs get lucky to a certain degree, based upon a decent number of factors they have little to no control over.  They also have a board they do have to answer to, and unless you have a cult of personality around you, the way Jobs did, you end up playing politics and the decisions the company makes comes out of the collective decision making of the board.  This decent number of factors they have little to no control over will cause a CEO to be seen as a darling one time, then a few years later, end up being seen as a goat.  Carly F of HP went from hero to goat in a few years, because decisions she made happened to not pan out, although they seemed to be smart at the time.

On the later point, in an information based economy everything scales to a very large degree.  The internet makes it so either it is feast or famine.

None of that sounds like luck.

You seem to have a strange phenomena of considering everything a person doesn't have direct control over as luck.

You might as well claim that 100% of being a stockbroker is luck because a stockbroker has no direct control of a company and often doesn't know how research and other things are happening behind closed doors.

Being wrong doesn't mean your lucky.

Hell seems like according to your definiton some things people do have direct control of, is directly within a ceo's control.  Like whether or not you have a cult of personality.

Which steve jobs developed by being an uncompromising dick who nobody liked behind close doors but stood behind things having to be his way.

 

Incorrect foresight, inability to garner board support and inability to read the future of your company and the economy are NOT luck.

It is a lot easier in life to make bad choices and do worse, than it is to make good choices and succeed.  In this, there is also survivor bias, where an individual CEO, who happened to be around in a boom time, gets worshipped as some sort of genius, when it is they got lucky.  The reality is that they just got lucky, and survived events.  In short, incompetence can get punished, while competency has no guaranty of getting rewarded.  By the law of large numbers, competency should eventually pany out, but that would depend on the size of the window.

In the case of being wrong, if you are wrong and it works out, you got lucky.  But, it also has been noted, you don't measure the quality of a decision by the outcome, due to a large bit of probability involved in complex decisions.  Competent poker players will testify to this, as would anyone else taking risks who decides to remain true to employing a strategy.

In this also, you see in professional sports where a coach who does the same thing, and had been successful, will end up getting fired.  The same went with the General Manager in the likes of baseball.  Theo Epstein is now GM of the Cubs, because of the meltdown the Red Sox had.  Did Theo suddenly become less competent than before?  Did he do any worse than when the Red Sox Nation thing broke out?  Same guy, doubt any sign of any difference, just things didn't break right.  



scat398 said:

@richardhutnik.  I understand your points, despite the uneeded exagerations and I am also familiar with the current public assistance system (not in New York mind you, but in California, although they are similar).  Just to get this out of the way right now, if you think for one minute that the requirements by the state to receive benefits are anything but a bunch of rubberstamping  and one big giant circle jerk we are not going to find common ground.  Our current system is designed to have you jump through just the right number of hoops to keep uncle sam sending you a check and nothing more, it's a lesson in CYA to the ultimate extreme. 

But my point was that these individuals are not stupid, they know what they are doing and are making a concious choice to not work for minimum wage or slighlty better because they can and do receive more from the goverenment to stay home.  We can talk all day long about the lady with five kids that can't work because she can't afford daycare but the truth is she shouldn't have five kids, she shouldn't have any kids, but you can't say that can you?

The truth is people need to go back to work at reduced wages.  These wages overtime will reduce prices and will lower the burden on the federal government. But you have to decide if that is what you really want.  We both know the circe gets smaller as the number of unemployed increases.  More people on federal assistance, less taxes come in, less demand for goods, more unemployed, more people on federal assistance...raise taxes...and so on, we both know it doesn't end well. 

 

We've addressed this issue of "they shouldn't have the kids" before, and that leads to one of three options:

1) Mandatory sterilization and/or abortions for those who are unfit to raise children

2) Leave them to understand the consequences of their actions (e.g. let the kids suffer from malnutrition et al)

3) Make the children wards of the state (damaging for the children psychologically and still costing the state money)

One of those cases where you have to pick your poison wisely



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:

CEOs get lucky to a certain degree, based upon a decent number of factors they have little to no control over.  They also have a board they do have to answer to, and unless you have a cult of personality around you, the way Jobs did, you end up playing politics and the decisions the company makes comes out of the collective decision making of the board.  This decent number of factors they have little to no control over will cause a CEO to be seen as a darling one time, then a few years later, end up being seen as a goat.  Carly F of HP went from hero to goat in a few years, because decisions she made happened to not pan out, although they seemed to be smart at the time.

On the later point, in an information based economy everything scales to a very large degree.  The internet makes it so either it is feast or famine.

None of that sounds like luck.

You seem to have a strange phenomena of considering everything a person doesn't have direct control over as luck.

You might as well claim that 100% of being a stockbroker is luck because a stockbroker has no direct control of a company and often doesn't know how research and other things are happening behind closed doors.

Being wrong doesn't mean your lucky.

Hell seems like according to your definiton some things people do have direct control of, is directly within a ceo's control.  Like whether or not you have a cult of personality.

Which steve jobs developed by being an uncompromising dick who nobody liked behind close doors but stood behind things having to be his way.

 

Incorrect foresight, inability to garner board support and inability to read the future of your company and the economy are NOT luck.

It is a lot easier in life to make bad choices and do worse, than it is to make good choices and succeed.  In this, there is also survivor bias, where an individual CEO, who happened to be around in a boom time, gets worshipped as some sort of genius, when it is they got lucky.  The reality is that they just got lucky, and survived events.  In short, incompetence can get punished, while competency has no guaranty of getting rewarded.  By the law of large numbers, competency should eventually pany out, but that would depend on the size of the window.

In the case of being wrong, if you are wrong and it works out, you got lucky.  But, it also has been noted, you don't measure the quality of a decision by the outcome, due to a large bit of probability involved in complex decisions.  Competent poker players will testify to this, as would anyone else taking risks who decides to remain true to employing a strategy.

In this also, you see in professional sports where a coach who does the same thing, and had been successful, will end up getting fired.  The same went with the General Manager in the likes of baseball.  Theo Epstein is now GM of the Cubs, because of the meltdown the Red Sox had.  Did Theo suddenly become less competent than before?  Did he do any worse than when the Red Sox Nation thing broke out?  Same guy, doubt any sign of any difference, just things didn't break right.  


Except... I see plenty of Ceo's get praised her weren't around during economic boom times, often you see them praise for how graceful a fall companies have... and there are plenty of ceos who work for companies that do well who also aren't praised.

Plus, once a CEO "loses it" they get turned on pretty fast commentary wise.

In general when people talk about CEOs they seem to try and take everything into account when it comes to external factors.

Because their is a LOT of money on it.