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Forums - General - Student Arrested for Plotting Gas Attack on Anti-Pope Crowd

sapphi_snake said:
Kynes said:
sapphi_snake said:
Kynes said:

If it would have a net positive result for the Spanish economy, then I'm almost sure the protests would be minimal, if any. The problem is that atheists in Spain, and mostly in the entire world, protest against Christians in general, and Catholics in particular, but they almost never protest against Muslims. The problem isn't that a religious leader has come to Spain, the problem is that he's the Pope, and what he represents.

No, the problem is that this is a religious event funded by taxpayer money. A Government (in a democratic secular country at least), is not allowed to fund such an event. Believe it or not, but lots of people actually care about things like freedom of religion, and dislike it when it is broken, this being such a case. And I don't see any Western Governments funding trips to Mecca for muslims, so why would anyone protest against them?


First of all, you were the one who put the trips to Mecca example, if you think it's an absurd example, you are the culprit of using it in the first time.

 

You need to take a look at the 16.3 article of the Spanish constitution. Spain isn't a secular country, a la France. We don't have an official religion, but the Catholic church has some benefits due to tradition and the great supportive actions it does to the Spanish government, as schools, hospitals, elderly asylums... dependent of the Catholic church are way cheaper to the taxpayer, one student in a catholic school is more than 50% cheaper than one in a public one. One of the benefits it has is the possibility every taxpayer has to decide if he wants to provide a 0,7% to fund it, to fund other NPOs, to split the money between both options, or do neither and provide all his tax money to the government funding.

I think that the ideea of the Spanish Government funding trips to Mecca for muslims is as absurd as they funding the Pope's visit.

If Spain isn't a secular country, then I assume it's a theocracy, no? I mean, if the Catholic Church recieves 'benefits', then it's pretty obvious that's the case. These 'benefits' recieved by Catholic Church undermine people's freedom of religion (provided there even is such a right in Spain). I assume that the Catholic Church recieves additional funding, outside that 0.7% of tax money people may or may not choose to give it, no?


No, you don't seem to understand that you don't have to be a theocracy or a secular country, you have other government types. I will repeat again, we don't have an official religion, and we aren't a secular country. The presence of the religion in public acts isn't forbidden. Is the USA a secular country? Is UK one? Norway? Israel?

 

Related to taxpayers money, nowadays the Catholic Church only has that direct benefit, the 0.7% of the income tax of the users who decide to provide it. It used to have exemptions in the VAT, and some direct funding, as any other religion based on the percentage of believers, but several years ago they were overruled. Some people argue that the use of catholic schools as state-subsidized ones is an indirect way of funding it, but as I have mentioned before, one student in a catholic school is way cheaper to the Spanish taxpayer than a student in a public school one.

 

In Spain not only the Catholic Church has bennefits, we have several mosques partly funded indirectly with taxpayers money, with local governments providing the place where them would be built, or directly funded as the Islamic, Jews or Evangelics are.



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Kynes said:


No, you don't seem to understand that you don't have to be a theocracy or a secular country, you have other government types. I will repeat again, we don't have an official religion, and we aren't a secular country. The presence of the religion in public acts isn't forbidden. Is the USA a secular country? Is UK one? Norway? Israel?

 

Related to taxpayers money, nowadays the Catholic Church only has that direct benefit, the 0.7% of the income tax of the users who decide to provide it. It used to have exemptions in the VAT, and some direct funding, as any other religion based on the percentage of believers, but several years ago they were overruled. Some people argue that the use of catholic schools as state-subsidized ones is an indirect way of funding it, but as I have mentioned before, one student in a catholic school is way cheaper to the Spanish taxpayer than a student in a public school one.

So, Spain's not a theocracy, yet it gives benefits to a particular religion? That just seems wrong, and I think Spaniards (who care about religious freedom of course) should fight to change that.  And the US constitution actually forbids the Government and religious institutions for interferring with eachother. In the US the Government would never fund a religious event like the Pope visiting.

And if the state subsidizes catholic schools, then it's pretty obvious that it's funded by the state. Which means that catholic schools should follow the same rules as normal public schools do: no prayers, no religious symbols in the classroom etc.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
Kynes said:


No, you don't seem to understand that you don't have to be a theocracy or a secular country, you have other government types. I will repeat again, we don't have an official religion, and we aren't a secular country. The presence of the religion in public acts isn't forbidden. Is the USA a secular country? Is UK one? Norway? Israel?

 

Related to taxpayers money, nowadays the Catholic Church only has that direct benefit, the 0.7% of the income tax of the users who decide to provide it. It used to have exemptions in the VAT, and some direct funding, as any other religion based on the percentage of believers, but several years ago they were overruled. Some people argue that the use of catholic schools as state-subsidized ones is an indirect way of funding it, but as I have mentioned before, one student in a catholic school is way cheaper to the Spanish taxpayer than a student in a public school one.

So, Spain's not a theocracy, yet it gives benefits to a particular religion? That just seems wrong, and I think Spaniards (who care about religious freedom of course) should fight to change that.  And the US constitution actually forbids the Government and religious institutions for interferring with eachother. In the US the Government would never fund a religious event like the Pope visiting.

And if the state subsidizes catholic schools, then it's pretty obvious that it's funded by the state. Which means that catholic schools should follow the same rules as normal public schools do: no prayers, no religious symbols in the classroom etc.

Read again the edited post, the Catholic Church isn't the only one with benefits, any religion with a high enough number of followers has in some way or another public funding.

This isn't the first time the Pope has gone to any country, and it always is partly funded via taxpayers money. Do you really believe that when the Pope went to the USA, the Vatican paid everything? If you believe so, then you're less clever than you seem to believe you are.



@sapphi_snake: In our constitution Spain is described as a "secular and non-denominational state". In practice that means that no religion is (or should be) allowed to interfere in the social or poltical behavior of the country.

And I said should as the Catholic church in Spain, which had too much power with Franco's dictatoship, wants that power again and is constantly messing around, something that gets worse as one of the main political partys agrees with a lot of their "truths" (as they can't go wrong, they think).



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JEMC said:

@sapphi_snake: In our constitution Spain is described as a "secular and non-denominational state". In practice that means that no religion is (or should be) allowed to interfere in the social or poltical behavior of the country.

And I said should as the Catholic church in Spain, which had too much power with Franco's dictatoship, wants that power again and is constantly messing around, something that gets worse as one of the main political partys agrees with a lot of their "truths" (as they can't go wrong, they think).

16.3: Ninguna confesión tendrá carácter estatal. Los poderes públicos tendrán en cuenta las creencias religiosas de la sociedad española y mantendrán las consiguientes relaciones de cooperación con la Iglesia Católica y las demás confesiones.

16.3: No religion shall have a state character.  The public powers shall take into account the religious beliefs of Spanish society and maintain the appropriate relations of cooperation, with the Catholic Church and other denominations.

Where does it says that Spain is a secular state? Being a non-denominational state doesn't means being a secular state, as I have said before. Please, don't lie to try to convince people of something that isn't the truth.



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Before I get in a discussion. since I have already seen a thread like this on VGC. Did Spain invite the Pope, or did the Pope invite himself to Spain and expect them to pay everything?



sapphi_snake said:
Marks said:
sapphi_snake said:

I guess right-wing terrorist really is on the rise. First Norway, and now this. And LOL @ the ideea that only muslims are terrorists.

 


Anyone who says ONLY Muslims are terrorists is an idiot, anyone who says MOST terrorist attacks are by Muslims is correct.

Just go to www.thereligionofpeace.com they literally have a counter on weekly/monthly/yearly terrorist attacks since 9/11. In July alone 705 people were killed by Mulsim terrorist attacks. 7 times more than the Norway killing. And they aren't making this shit up either, they list each attack individually and you can do a google search and see every one of them is real. 

I'm not hating on all Muslims here, I know its just the radical crazy ones that do these killings. Just like its only a couple crazy people that have done/tried these recent attacks (Norway and now Spain). 

Not in the US.

 

Or in Europe, where separatists are the most dangerous.

 

Wow those are crazy! So in the US terrorists are Latinos as well as extreme left wing nuts/communists, and in Europe its separatist groups (I'm guessing like the IRA and stuff like that). 

That's craziness. What is considered a terrorist act though? Just any kind of planned killings of civilians or something?



Marks said:

Wow those are crazy! So in the US terrorists are Latinos as well as extreme left wing nuts/communists, and in Europe its separatist groups (I'm guessing like the IRA and stuff like that). 

That's craziness. What is considered a terrorist act though? Just any kind of planned killings of civilians or something?

Typical things terorrists do: bombings, taking hostages, mass killing etc. At least that's what separatist groups do in Europe. If I were visitng the UK, I'd be more nervous if I got on a bus and there was an Irish person there, rather than an Arab. Also, right wing terrorism is on the rise in Europe.

Terrorism depends on the area in which you live in. For example, christian terorists have been a huge problem for Mexico (such groups were even responsable for the assassination of one of Mexico's presidents last century). Islamic terrorists are only an immediate threat if you live in the Middle East (though I can understand that your Government would want you to think otherwise, in order to justify the whole 'War on Terror').



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

TadpoleJackson said:
Before I get in a discussion. since I have already seen a thread like this on VGC. Did Spain invite the Pope, or did the Pope invite himself to Spain and expect them to pay everything?

The Pope 'choose' Spain, so I assume he invited himself.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Kynes said:

Read again the edited post, the Catholic Church isn't the only one with benefits, any religion with a high enough number of followers has in some way or another public funding.

This isn't the first time the Pope has gone to any country, and it always is partly funded via taxpayers money. Do you really believe that when the Pope went to the USA, the Vatican paid everything? If you believe so, then you're less clever than you seem to believe you are.

It's discriminatory to offer benefits based on the number of followers. This concession was obviously made to benefit the Catholic Church, and should be removed.

Also, the Vatican is sadly recognized as a state (which it obviously shouldn't be), so the Pope is considered a foreing official and can say his visits are 'state visits' rather than pastoral visits, which is the reason why the Pope often winds up visiting countries for free. Obviously the Vatican should no longer be considered a state, and the Pope should pay for his own visits.

Oh, and if the Catholic Church solicits any fees for the services it provides (marriages, funerals etc.), then it is not a NPO, and thus should be taxed.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)