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What do you think of Black Holes,Worm holes?

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Total:43
Dr.Grass said:
maverick40 said:
Dr.Grass said:
maverick40 said:
Dr.Grass said:
maverick40 said:
JEMC said:
maverick40 said:
Blackholes actually exist, where as wormholes not so much as I can tell. As an astrophysicist, I spent half a year studying the mechanics, temperature profiles and evolution of blackholes. They are fascinating things and I think is reassuring to know that we have one gigantic black hole at the center of our galaxy.

Sorry to ask, but, why is it reassuring?


ha it isn't really but hey the blackhole is what is keeping the galaxy together so I suppose you could say that is reasuring to know.  Although a lot of people don't know what a black hole really is. It is the remnants of collapsed star that has a frozen event horizon. If ye guys are interested I could explain what would happen if someone theoretcially entered a black hole but I understand if ye think it is boring.

Question: How can you say that with such certainty if you have no idea what the interaction of the so-called dark-matter is with our galaxy? Even stranger is dark energy - which (the learned tell us) tend to push space apart.

I'm really flumoxed by how cosmologists and astrophycisists can speak in factual terms when there is much more they don't know than they do know...

What are you trying to get at? 

Do not put down what you do not understand. It is very easy to look up wikipedia and to find general information about cosmology to sound smart. So you trying to sound intelligent to undermine a physicist does not bode well with me.  I am sorry, I deal with your type of people at my university the whole time.

I have studied the mathematics and mechanics of black holes, and I have seen the effect black holes have within other galaxies. Dark matter has little to no interaction with galaxies. It only makes up 1% of the universe mass. Dark energy is an unknown quanity but we do know that it makes up 90 % percent of the universe. Physicist do not claim to know information about dark energy, an experiment was sent up to the ISS last month which should hopefully shed some light on this problem.  

1. I have a degree in Theoretical Physics and I'm doing MSc in Nuclear Physics so please don't try and patronize me with the 'anyone can look it up in Wiki' nonsense.

2. You have coyly avoided my first response to your statements. That was certainly the most important one as far as I am concerned and I would prefer you to comment on that as a future doctorate of science.

3. Comment #2 (quoted above) wasn't made in any accusative way; I assume you took it that way due to my 1st Comment. Note, that first comment isn't directed at you, but at the statements you made. They are in no way unique or out of the ordinary.

4. For a Astrophysicist you seem to not now that (drumroll as quote from wikipedia gets copied and pasted) ''...From these figures, dark matter constitutes 83%, (23/(23+4.6)), of the matter in the universe, whereas ordinary matter makes up only 17%''  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter As everyone can see now you are quite far from the actual accepted fact above.

Q.''What are you trying to get at?''

A. Something very simple really; I observe more and more that the scientific world view is impregnating general society due to the average man being intimitated by complicated terms and guys with PhD's, not because that model that you have built up with your sketchy data is fail-safe.

This is an important topic for me since there are less and less intelligent people willing to stand up to the ego-fuelled Dawkins and co - therefore I must go down this route.

Here's a cosmology question for you (in all seriousness): How are the distances between stars measured?

EDIT: Because anyone following religion these days is considered a lesser mortal by above mentioned scientist and his many followers. So-called disciples of rational thought.

For a Astrophysicist you seem to not now that (drumroll as quote from wikipedia gets copied and pasted) ''...From these figures, dark matter constitutes 83%, (23/(23+4.6)), of the matter in the universe, whereas ordinary matter makes up only 17%''  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter As everyone can see now you are quite far from the actual accepted fact above.

you sir are incorrect, relying on wikipedia is a bad idea. I just checked one of my papers there and I can say that the estimated distribution of dark matter and dark energy in the universe is approximately: 74% dark energy, 22% dark matter, 3.6% interstellar gas and 0.4 % stars etc...

EDIT: Because anyone following religion these days is considered a lesser mortal by above mentioned scientist and his many followers. So-called disciples of rational thought.

That is a rather childish school of taught I think. Atheism and religion are just as ignorant as each other, religion cannot prove the existance of god and atheism cannot prove what happened before the big bang. 

Here's a cosmology question for you (in all seriousness): How are the distances between stars measured?

Is this some sort of jest? seriously.  

''you sir are incorrect''

Oh come on. You said Dark Matter == 1% and now you want to make me look bad? And you know veeery well that these numbers changeall the time. 

''That is a rather childish school of taught I think. Atheism and religion are just as ignorant as each other, religion cannot prove the existance of god and atheism cannot prove what happened before the big bang''

Well science, per definition, cannot prove anything at all - It can only disprove. That's what the scientists follow. Now since religion is an internal experience, how do you know that God cannot reveal himself to someone elevated? I'm not a big fan of just throwing all the religions into one bucket, because the people that love doing so come from a Judeo-Christian background where the sum total of their religious duties is going to church 1 hour per week. If you spent that much attention on Mathematics you would hardly be able to do anything worthwhile, so why the double standards?

I have repeatedly challenged certain atheists to read certain books, but up to now none of them had any desire to do so. Atheism is as much a religion as anything else. Everyone has belief-systems and we are all subjective

''Is this some sort of jest? seriously.''

I was serious.


I have repeatedly challenged certain atheists to read certain books, but up to now none of them had any desire to do so. Atheism is as much a religion as anything else. Everyone has belief-systems and we are all subjective

I 100 percent agree with you on this. I cannot stand atheists and their refusal to be open-minded.

Oh come on. You said Dark Matter == 1% and now you want to make me look bad? And you know veeery well that these numbers changeall the time.

Your corrections were completly off so I needed to point that out. You looked up wikipedia to try make a fool out of me and failed. My off hand guesses were incorrect too but at least they were cloes enough to the current percentage. 

''Is this some sort of jest? seriously.''

I don't understand why you asked me this question. You can measure the distance between stars in a number of ways: You can measure the intrinsic brightness of the star and then by looking at how bright it appears, it's distance can be measured. Novae tend to have average intrinsic brightness, sp their apparent brightness in say a distant galaxy tells us it's distance. Cepheid variables such as the north star can be used to determine the distances to groups of stars.

Red shift is used for objects outside our galaxy because the amount of red shift within our galaxy would be extremely small if it were not totally overcome by the gravity of the galaxy.





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Although it was fiction Gene Rodenberry had an intresting theory that black holes actually warp time (i stand corrected on all this). So perhaps wormholes and blackholes are on in the same?



Just a layman's question, If black holes were to somehow pass energy/matter to another place or universe, shouldn't we be seeing galaxies come apart instead of sticking together. The mass still stays in the black hole does it not?



@svennjo

It would seem that way but its not here is why. After you passed the blackhole the rest of the universe is past. What matters here is relativity. What we percieve if we look from outside someone entering a blackhole. He gets slowly near the hole and stops forever frozen in time. Thats our reality. He sees it differently he looks onto the universe and the nearer he gets to the black hole the faster everything outside is moving he sees stars beeing born and die until he passes the schwarzschild radius from this point on the whole old universe is past outside everything already happened from his view and from our view inside nothing happened. So if a white hole would be reality then there would be two universes in two different times totally seperated through time. But its all just theory we lack the physics to describe what happens really. And even if true you couldnt pass, on the other side new physical laws would be created and you cant survive a big bang. A singularity cant be passed.



Netyaroze said:
@Dr Grass

Now you're going too far to my taste! A white hole means nothing can go in, but things can go out. Also, some suggest the matter is transported to another universe or something like that. Crazy stuff indeed.

That was one of the options of the thread that a black hole is kind of a portal that spits you out on the other side. I said a portal enables you to go through but a black hole doesnt. In any case either time stops in the hole so you cant pass or if you use the Kruszal coordinates you can have a white hole as a mathematical solution. But you still cant pass. Your energy can pass maybe but not you. We dont know what conciousness is but everything we know is affected by gravity no quantum physics please. It would be scrambled in the black hole and it would stop beeing concious if its affected by gravity. A blackhole as portal is just very unlikely that was my point. You have to see my answers in the context of the thread I didnt reply to you directly I just wanted to make clear a black hole isnt a portal even if you can enter it (my first point was you couldnt enter but you corrected me rightfully so I explained why even if you enter from your perspective even if you dont die on the way even if blackholes transform into white holes even then you still couldnt live to see the other side because every information along the way looses its identity.

"Yip. Not too hard to calculate. Its also just speculation of course, but the arguments seem reasonable. Now if someone actually had a working Nuclear Theory then we would be more certain. As it stands, there is no Nuclear Theory, which means the atomic forces (strong especially) are not understood at all, which means that it's merely an educated guess at what mass is required to overcome all these forces... The general Relativity part of the problem is a little more tricky and I have yet to master Einstein's field equations tbh."

Yes I know people do know that I meant most people I doubt that the general public knows that without lookinb at wikipedia. It was a hypothetical example to show a black hole isnt a vacuum cleaner that sucks everything away just a really heavy star in most cases.

Yep, that's a common misconception and one you obviously emphasized for good reason. About the stuff above that, I just can't stomach it, even though everything you say seems fair and correct to me.



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No problem, I honestly didnt expect someone calling me out so I was sloppy here.



maverick40 said:
Dr.Grass said:
maverick40 said:
Dr.Grass said:
maverick40 said:
Dr.Grass said:
maverick40 said:
JEMC said:
maverick40 said:
Blackholes actually exist, where as wormholes not so much as I can tell. As an astrophysicist, I spent half a year studying the mechanics, temperature profiles and evolution of blackholes. They are fascinating things and I think is reassuring to know that we have one gigantic black hole at the center of our galaxy.

Sorry to ask, but, why is it reassuring?


ha it isn't really but hey the blackhole is what is keeping the galaxy together so I suppose you could say that is reasuring to know.  Although a lot of people don't know what a black hole really is. It is the remnants of collapsed star that has a frozen event horizon. If ye guys are interested I could explain what would happen if someone theoretcially entered a black hole but I understand if ye think it is boring.

Question: How can you say that with such certainty if you have no idea what the interaction of the so-called dark-matter is with our galaxy? Even stranger is dark energy - which (the learned tell us) tend to push space apart.

I'm really flumoxed by how cosmologists and astrophycisists can speak in factual terms when there is much more they don't know than they do know...

What are you trying to get at? 

Do not put down what you do not understand. It is very easy to look up wikipedia and to find general information about cosmology to sound smart. So you trying to sound intelligent to undermine a physicist does not bode well with me.  I am sorry, I deal with your type of people at my university the whole time.

I have studied the mathematics and mechanics of black holes, and I have seen the effect black holes have within other galaxies. Dark matter has little to no interaction with galaxies. It only makes up 1% of the universe mass. Dark energy is an unknown quanity but we do know that it makes up 90 % percent of the universe. Physicist do not claim to know information about dark energy, an experiment was sent up to the ISS last month which should hopefully shed some light on this problem.  

1. I have a degree in Theoretical Physics and I'm doing MSc in Nuclear Physics so please don't try and patronize me with the 'anyone can look it up in Wiki' nonsense.

2. You have coyly avoided my first response to your statements. That was certainly the most important one as far as I am concerned and I would prefer you to comment on that as a future doctorate of science.

3. Comment #2 (quoted above) wasn't made in any accusative way; I assume you took it that way due to my 1st Comment. Note, that first comment isn't directed at you, but at the statements you made. They are in no way unique or out of the ordinary.

4. For a Astrophysicist you seem to not now that (drumroll as quote from wikipedia gets copied and pasted) ''...From these figures, dark matter constitutes 83%, (23/(23+4.6)), of the matter in the universe, whereas ordinary matter makes up only 17%''  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter As everyone can see now you are quite far from the actual accepted fact above.

Q.''What are you trying to get at?''

A. Something very simple really; I observe more and more that the scientific world view is impregnating general society due to the average man being intimitated by complicated terms and guys with PhD's, not because that model that you have built up with your sketchy data is fail-safe.

This is an important topic for me since there are less and less intelligent people willing to stand up to the ego-fuelled Dawkins and co - therefore I must go down this route.

Here's a cosmology question for you (in all seriousness): How are the distances between stars measured?

EDIT: Because anyone following religion these days is considered a lesser mortal by above mentioned scientist and his many followers. So-called disciples of rational thought.

For a Astrophysicist you seem to not now that (drumroll as quote from wikipedia gets copied and pasted) ''...From these figures, dark matter constitutes 83%, (23/(23+4.6)), of the matter in the universe, whereas ordinary matter makes up only 17%''  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter As everyone can see now you are quite far from the actual accepted fact above.

you sir are incorrect, relying on wikipedia is a bad idea. I just checked one of my papers there and I can say that the estimated distribution of dark matter and dark energy in the universe is approximately: 74% dark energy, 22% dark matter, 3.6% interstellar gas and 0.4 % stars etc...

EDIT: Because anyone following religion these days is considered a lesser mortal by above mentioned scientist and his many followers. So-called disciples of rational thought.

That is a rather childish school of taught I think. Atheism and religion are just as ignorant as each other, religion cannot prove the existance of god and atheism cannot prove what happened before the big bang. 

Here's a cosmology question for you (in all seriousness): How are the distances between stars measured?

Is this some sort of jest? seriously.  

''you sir are incorrect''

Oh come on. You said Dark Matter == 1% and now you want to make me look bad? And you know veeery well that these numbers changeall the time. 

''That is a rather childish school of taught I think. Atheism and religion are just as ignorant as each other, religion cannot prove the existance of god and atheism cannot prove what happened before the big bang''

Well science, per definition, cannot prove anything at all - It can only disprove. That's what the scientists follow. Now since religion is an internal experience, how do you know that God cannot reveal himself to someone elevated? I'm not a big fan of just throwing all the religions into one bucket, because the people that love doing so come from a Judeo-Christian background where the sum total of their religious duties is going to church 1 hour per week. If you spent that much attention on Mathematics you would hardly be able to do anything worthwhile, so why the double standards?

I have repeatedly challenged certain atheists to read certain books, but up to now none of them had any desire to do so. Atheism is as much a religion as anything else. Everyone has belief-systems and we are all subjective

''Is this some sort of jest? seriously.''

I was serious.


I have repeatedly challenged certain atheists to read certain books, but up to now none of them had any desire to do so. Atheism is as much a religion as anything else. Everyone has belief-systems and we are all subjective

I 100 percent agree with you on this. I cannot stand atheists and their refusal to be open-minded.

Oh come on. You said Dark Matter == 1% and now you want to make me look bad? And you know veeery well that these numbers changeall the time.

Your corrections were completly off so I needed to point that out. You looked up wikipedia to try make a fool out of me and failed. My off hand guesses were incorrect too but at least they were cloes enough to the current percentage. 

''Is this some sort of jest? seriously.''

I don't understand why you asked me this question. You can measure the distance between stars in a number of ways: You can measure the intrinsic brightness of the star and then by looking at how bright it appears, it's distance can be measured. Novae tend to have average intrinsic brightness, sp their apparent brightness in say a distant galaxy tells us it's distance. Cepheid variables such as the north star can be used to determine the distances to groups of stars.

Red shift is used for objects outside our galaxy because the amount of red shift within our galaxy would be extremely small if it were not totally overcome by the gravity of the galaxy.



Seeing as we're probably the only two physicists on here and (oddly enough) you agree about my sentiment towards atheists, I'd rather apologize for giving you the impression that I'm trying to make a fool out of you, as this was not my intention. I was in the mood for giving you the 3rd degree though I think that's partly due to my recent tendancy to discard our observational sciences for the more abstract and elegant mathematical models

Lately all the nuclear selection rules have been a major disappointment to me - It's like studying engineering. After studying the absolute beauty of Hillbert spaces and trying to wrap my mind around the Topological structure of Quantum Field Theory I have become convinced that our fundamental assumption: 'Observable  <=> Real Eigenstate' leaves more questions than answers. It's as if the mathematical structure was ripped out of the hands of the Mathematicians and glued together for the sake of being practical. The non-real solutions and the subspace their wave-functions represent must be explored to the fullest, yet all the funding and brain-power has sailed to less elegent waters. At least the string-theorists are allowed their fun - somewhat.

With regards to the intrinsic brightness issue, I wanted to get to (wiki again): '

'Since the sun's luminosity is the standard, comparing these parameters with the sun's apparent magnitude and distance is the easiest way to remember how to convert between them.''

Now this is something I happen to really have a problem with. I'd rather you not go into detail here, we can save it for another day - as I know the actual correlation and propagation of error is not something I can really take in without pen in hand. Also, it'll probably be long and complicated and derail this thread even more. I'd like to go through that model at some point though, so feel free to advise a book on the 'structure of cosmological models' that does the trick.



Netyaroze said:
@svennjo

It would seem that way but its not here is why. After you passed the blackhole the rest of the universe is past. What matters here is relativity. What we percieve if we look from outside someone entering a blackhole. He gets slowly near the hole and stops forever frozen in time. Thats our reality. He sees it differently he looks onto the universe and the nearer he gets to the black hole the faster everything outside is moving he sees stars beeing born and die until he passes the schwarzschild radius from this point on the whole old universe is past outside everything already happened from his view and from our view inside nothing happened. So if a white hole would be reality then there would be two universes in two different times totally seperated through time. But its all just theory we lack the physics to describe what happens really. And even if true you couldnt pass, on the other side new physical laws would be created and you cant survive a big bang. A singularity cant be passed.

I was under the impression that their was an alternative theory that the black hole just spits up all the matter again when it dies. The problem with that (and certainly related to your excellent description of venturing into a black hole) is the live muuuuuuch longer than the current estimated age of the universe. We don't have a chance in hell of ever spotting anything like that.

SO the experiment will never happen, and the fact has to be deduced from theory and incremental experiments.

Was I wrong?

As for the singularity that pops up in these theories - That's a fundamental problem we are not even close to solving. It seems beyond human grasp at present.



@Maverick

BTW, seeing as there's a 50/50 chance that the SKA will be built in my country you'll probably get a job offer here soon



@Netyaroze Ahh that makes sense, thanks.

Another question I have is with dark energy. It seems it was introduced to explain the accelerating expansion of the universe. The acceleration is deduced by measuring distances to a certain type of supernova, at different points in the past, that are considered to always occur at the same color and brightness.
How can we be sure of that? Is it possible that in the distant past these supernova might have been slightly different?
Is it possible that the expansion of the universe isn't accelerating after all, that it's an optical illusion?
Maybe constants changing over time is an even worse explanation then dark energy?