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Forums - General - The Top 5 Anime Of All-Time.

arcelonious said:
I put Cowboy Bebop in my Top 5. I loved how Cowboy Bebop meshed Jazz with a Futuristic setting, and how Samurai Champloo did the opposite, by mixing contemporary Hip Hop with a Historical setting. I wanted to include both Cowboy Bebop and Samurai Champloo in my top 5 (I loved the beats in Samurai Champloo, RIP Nujabes), but I couldn't fit both, so I decided to at least put one of Watanabe's works in my list.


I've seen Samurai Champloo. SO Cowboy Bebop is by the same guy?



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1- Rurouni Kenshin: Tsuiokuhen
2- Monster
3- Hajime no Ippo
4- Great Teacher Onizuka
5- Code Geass



outlawauron said:
seiya19 said:
Dodece said:
The second is that Anime ends up being defined as a genre itself. Which is actually not the case at all. It is an art form that encompasses a lot of genres.

By the way, I'm all for being open-minded but your words seemed to express disdain towards Shonen Jump and "mainstream" anime in general, which I would say it's an example of the opossite... Maybe (and hopefully) I'm just reading too much into your comments, but it wouldn't be the first time I find people complaining about this. Sometimes it seems that the division between what's "mainstream" and what isn't seems to be much bigger than usual among anime fans, and i'm of the opinion that popularity or concensus should never influence your personal opinion on said work.

I admit that I have yet to see many series mentioned here, as I haven't seen as much anime as I would've wanted to, for a variety of reasons. Still, I would say that my top 3 at least is quite consolidated, so I don't see it changing in the near future. But who knows...

See, this is where I have to agree with Dodece. Most shounen anime and popular shows are indeed terrible. I may somewhat enjoy some of the shows (Gintama and DBZ way back in the day), but I think it's ridiculous to consider them for these sorts of lists. It's the same with people that haven't been exposed to a lot of movies or games. Their top 'list' will show that they haven't seen very much. That doesn't mean that their opinion doesn't matter, its just that their lists may not be as refined like blacksaber or myself (who both watch far too much anime)

First of all, do you believe that Cowboy Bebop and Code Geass are popular ? I believe they're, and both of them are in your personal top 5... Assuming you agree, wouldn't this be enough to keep an open mind about popular anime, as opossed to being biased against them ?

Anyway... An opinion, no matter how "refined" it is, is still an opinion. It's still subjective, therefore not more valid than anyone else's. Not even concensus is enough to invalidate or diminish someone's opinion, as both things are perfectly capable of co-exist.

As I said before, being biased against a certain genre or "mainstream" anime in general is clearly not keeping an open mind, as you're letting these labels get in the way of truly evaluating the actual work. It's no different than those who stay away of non-mainstream anime because of equivalent reasons. There's a lot of elements that determine whether something becomes popular or not, many of them not having anything to do with the work itself. So, using this metric to prove that something is "good" or "bad" in terms of quality is ridiculous, no matter what side you're on. I'm sure we can all come up with examples of popular and unpopular works that we like, so why let popularity or lack of it influence our personal taste ?

Asking for others to keep an open mind and try new things when you're not willing to do so is an example of hypocrisy. If you're not willing to get out of your own "comfort zone" from time to time, no matter what it is, don't ask for others to do it. Personally, while I always try to keep an open mind, I do have my limits and favoritisms so I realize that I can't criticise others for the same thing, just express my views. Besides, you can't prove that a person who likes a certain work would change his mind if he had more experience. Maybe, maybe not, but there's no evidence either way.

By the way... While I surely can't claim that I have a lot of experience with anime (I've probably seen around 50, while being just informed of others), I can claim that I have a fairly relevant amount of experience with videogames, given that I started playing them in the NES era. And just like with anime, I don't believe this puts my opinion above others in any way, as it's also subjective. In addition, I still enjoy many games that I played when I was younger and didn't have as much experience, a few of them still being among my favorite games ever, even after playing them several times throughout the years. And I know many others do too.



seiya19 said:
outlawauron said:
seiya19 said:
Dodece said:
The second is that Anime ends up being defined as a genre itself. Which is actually not the case at all. It is an art form that encompasses a lot of genres.

By the way, I'm all for being open-minded but your words seemed to express disdain towards Shonen Jump and "mainstream" anime in general, which I would say it's an example of the opossite... Maybe (and hopefully) I'm just reading too much into your comments, but it wouldn't be the first time I find people complaining about this. Sometimes it seems that the division between what's "mainstream" and what isn't seems to be much bigger than usual among anime fans, and i'm of the opinion that popularity or concensus should never influence your personal opinion on said work.

I admit that I have yet to see many series mentioned here, as I haven't seen as much anime as I would've wanted to, for a variety of reasons. Still, I would say that my top 3 at least is quite consolidated, so I don't see it changing in the near future. But who knows...

See, this is where I have to agree with Dodece. Most shounen anime and popular shows are indeed terrible. I may somewhat enjoy some of the shows (Gintama and DBZ way back in the day), but I think it's ridiculous to consider them for these sorts of lists. It's the same with people that haven't been exposed to a lot of movies or games. Their top 'list' will show that they haven't seen very much. That doesn't mean that their opinion doesn't matter, its just that their lists may not be as refined like blacksaber or myself (who both watch far too much anime)

First of all, do you believe that Cowboy Bebop and Code Geass are popular ? I believe they're, and both of them are in your personal top 5... Assuming you agree, wouldn't this be enough to keep an open mind about popular anime, as opossed to being biased against them ?

Anyway... An opinion, no matter how "refined" it is, is still an opinion. It's still subjective, therefore not more valid than anyone else's. Not even concensus is enough to invalidate or diminish someone's opinion, as both things are perfectly capable of co-exist.

As I said before, being biased against a certain genre or "mainstream" anime in general is clearly not keeping an open mind, as you're letting these labels get in the way of truly evaluating the actual work. It's no different than those who stay away of non-mainstream anime because of equivalent reasons. There's a lot of elements that determine whether something becomes popular or not, many of them not having anything to do with the work itself. So, using this metric to prove that something is "good" or "bad" in terms of quality is ridiculous, no matter what side you're on. I'm sure we can all come up with examples of popular and unpopular works that we like, so why let popularity or lack of it influence our personal taste ?

Asking for others to keep an open mind and try new things when you're not willing to do so is an example of hypocrisy. If you're not willing to get out of your own "comfort zone" from time to time, no matter what it is, don't ask for others to do it. Personally, while I always try to keep an open mind, I do have my limits and favoritisms so I realize that I can't criticise others for the same thing, just express my views. Besides, you can't prove that a person who likes a certain work would change his mind if he had more experience. Maybe, maybe not, but there's no evidence either way.

By the way... While I surely can't claim that I have a lot of experience with anime (I've probably seen around 50, while being just informed of others), I can claim that I have a fairly relevant amount of experience with videogames, given that I started playing them in the NES era. And just like with anime, I don't believe this puts my opinion above others in any way, as it's also subjective. In addition, I still enjoy many games that I played when I was younger and didn't have as much experience, a few of them still being among my favorite games ever, even after playing them several times throughout the years. And I know many others do too.

Of course Bebop and Geass popular, they're huge (honestly, every show in my top 5 is pretty popular with KnK and Nodame being primarily in Japan). I'm not sure how I ever said I didn't have an open mind about other popular shows (especially considering how many of them I've seen!). Just because something is popular doesn't mean I start to dislike it, a hipster I am not.

Second part, I disagree wholeheartedly. It's like a movie critic, would you take Roger Ebert's word on a movie over user comments on fandango.com? The users view aren't worthless, but I believe the critique or view of more versed person, in whatever the topic of interest is, is far more valuable than your average opinion. While that is a rather big strecth to compare someone like Ebert to our discussion, I do believe it helps make my point.

While it is mostly anecdotal and personal experience, I disagree with the bolded. As you said, there's no evidence we can grasp upon, but I think it works a lot like nostalgia. I refuse to watch DBZ again as I have fond memories and do not wish to lose those fond memories.

To the last part, due to you playing games over many years, I would value your opinion far more than someone who just started gaming and when they do, they only play Halo or the new Call of Duty. Doesn't make their opinion worthless or somehow bad, it's just that they have really expanded beyond whatever their 'comfort zone' is.



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Unfortunately when it comes to Anime Popular and Available are synonymous in the West. The truth is that it really does taint the results. It isn't necessarily the case that a series is the best. Usually it is just the best of what little has been made available for sampling. It isn't necessarily a criticism as it is a statement of fact. Nobody is at fault, or all that guilty if that is what it is seeming like. It is for lack of a better word very ignorant. No it really isn't subjective if the community had more exposure the lists would be far more varied, and you would see that for any other subject matter.

It isn't exactly a subjective statement either. I think it could be said with certainty. People are different, and it is a fact of life that the more you consume the more refined your tastes should become. Even if they were to only be attracted to Shonen Jump like fair. You would still see significant variation. Let me put it in a context. When we were all four or five years old. We would all say that Sesame Street was one of the best television shows. For us it may seem true, but that is only the result of us not having a lot of experience which would allows us to develop our own unique taste.

Anyway it is a good thing to argue for people to try more series out. Rather then take what is handed to them it is only good for the medium. You can't really argue that it is a choice born out of knowledge. It is just a choice born out of slim pickings. You know we could always put this to the test by asking in the future for someone to provide a qualification for their choice by saying how many series they have watched.



outlawauron said:
seiya19 said:
outlawauron said:
seiya19 said:
Dodece said:

Of course Bebop and Geass popular, they're huge (honestly, every show in my top 5 is pretty popular with KnK and Nodame being primarily in Japan). I'm not sure how I ever said I didn't have an open mind about other popular shows (especially considering how many of them I've seen!). Just because something is popular doesn't mean I start to dislike it, a hipster I am not.

Second part, I disagree wholeheartedly. It's like a movie critic, would you take Roger Ebert's word on a movie over user comments on fandango.com? The users view aren't worthless, but I believe the critique or view of more versed person, in whatever the topic of interest is, is far more valuable than your average opinion. While that is a rather big strecth to compare someone like Ebert to our discussion, I do believe it helps make my point.

While it is mostly anecdotal and personal experience, I disagree with the bolded. As you said, there's no evidence we can grasp upon, but I think it works a lot like nostalgia. I refuse to watch DBZ again as I have fond memories and do not wish to lose those fond memories.

To the last part, due to you playing games over many years, I would value your opinion far more than someone who just started gaming and when they do, they only play Halo or the new Call of Duty. Doesn't make their opinion worthless or somehow bad, it's just that they have really expanded beyond whatever their 'comfort zone' is.

Well, when someone claims that "most popular shows are indeed terrible" I take it as a sign that said person is biased against them... Specially when the same person is arguing that some popular shows are only included here because of a lack of knowledge from those that chose them. But ok, if you don't believe there's a relation between popularity and quality, then we agree.

As for the second part, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think the opinion of any critic on a certain work is more valid than anyone else's, as long as they both have experienced it, of course. While the critic or more experienced person might be able to recognize certain elements or their origin that the average person wouldn't, I don't believe this makes their opinion more valid. As I mentioned before, the evaluation of whatever information you have is still subjective, so it really only applies to your personal views. If we were arguing about an objective topic, it would obviously be a different story. For example, Roger Ebert's opinion would be very valuable if I wanted to make a documental about the history of cinema.

Furthermore, I would argue that experience can be a double-edge sword when it comes to the evaluation of an artistic work. The more experience you have, the bigger the risk of being influenced by it... Keeping an open mind is not just about trying new things, but also about trying to see things from different and new perspectives, which is easier to do when you don't have that much experience to begin with. This is arguable of course, and a long discussion by itself, but you get the point. 

While it is mostly anecdotal and personal experience, I disagree with the bolded.

I don't understand why you disagreed with the bolded when all I said was that you can't prove it, which you agreed to. Anyway, you're obviously free to believe that it's just nostalgia, but in the end it's just that, a belief. The way I see it, nostalgia can only get you so far, and when you re-experience the same work after a long time and still believe it's one of the best, then that alone proves it's not just that to me. I could name several examples of this, but of course, I can't prove them to you unless you could get into my head... So, either you take my word for it or you don't. In any case, this kind of arguments could be used the other way around, like for example claiming that you only like a recent show so much because it's still fresh to you and you haven't given it enough time to properly evaluate its importance. And I for one believe that the test of time is the biggest test that an artistic work can face, as it's much more difficult to stay relevant after long periods of time than being the best only the moment you appear. On a related note, I'm currently watching Dragon Ball Z on Cartoon Network... (the Latin American version is not edited like the US one though)

And about the last part, keep in mind that there's a difference between having a sizeable amount of experience and the variety of said experience. If someone has seen 100 anime but they're all shoujo while another person has seen only 50 but from different genres, who has more anime experience ? It's certainly arguable, right ?



1. Ghost in the Shell

My love of this series probably has something to do with the fact that Blade Runner is my favorite film. This show has everything ... endearing characters, philosophical pondering which (usually) does not get excessive enough to bog down the plot, fascinating story arcs and villains, and a healthy dose of cyberpunk action.

 

2. Ergo Proxy

One of those weird weird shows that I had to watch at least twice before I could say with confidence that I understood the whole plot and all of the little details. A great show, but one that I rarely see anime fans talk about even if they have heard of it.

 

3. Serial Experiments Lain

Got a thing for the weird stuff, and the sci-fi / philosophical overtones make this one memorable too. Lacks a plot as deep and unique as Ergo Proxy and Ghost, and is not nearly as re-watchable as them.

 

4. Texhnolyze

Like most of my list this is sci-fi and obscure. Took me a good 5 episodes to warm up to it, and I will be the first to admit it is slow, but I still appreciate it for just how unique it is. It is one of those series I would watch maybe once in a great while ... may skip some of the earlier episodes next time I do.

 

5. Gantz

This is the only series on my top 5 that I don't own, but I would probably pick it up if I ever found it cheap. A fun gore/sci-fi extravaganza that pulls no punches. Unfortunately, it has one of the worst forced anime endings I have ever seen in a series. I understand that an anime can usually only go on for so long, but the ending was just pathetic leaving absolutely nothing resolved. The writers just tried to (in the span of a few episodes) attempt to supply some kind of message to a story where it was completely uncalled for (just like in Evangelion, actually). Gantz still makes my list though for all of the episodes being a fun guilty pleasure of sorts up until the last few. My advice would be to watch the series up until the end of the third "game" and then just stop and make up your own ending (which will probably be much better than the actual ending). Either that or go read the manga which continues the story.

 

Honorable mention: Cowboy Bebop. This is the second mainstream series I enjoy, but it doesn't make the list for lack of any substantial and meaningful plot, or even the raw hedonism that Gantz provides. It is a great series overall, but too many episodes are filler/ are interchangeable, and the main plot between Spike and Viscious takes way too long to get going. It seems uncessary too. One gets the impression via flashbacks / ect. that there is a lot more history between these two characters than the series will show, but we never get the chance to explore it. I would definately watch the series again though, but I think I will have to skip any and all episodes with Ed taking up extensive screen prescence since she has to be one of the most annoying characters I have ever seen in an anime (and I have seen at least 50 different series by now). I must also say that Bebop has one of the best endings to an anime I have ever seen (this is not saying much since anime endings tend to suck, but it is still worthy of mention).



@Dodece

Unfortunately when it comes to Anime Popular and Available are synonymous in the West. The truth is that it really does taint the results. It isn't necessarily the case that a series is the best. Usually it is just the best of what little has been made available for sampling.

While it's true that the very limited distribution of anime in the West can limit our experience as consumers, this is now becoming a thing of the past with digital distribution, both official and unofficial (fansubs). And you clearly can't evaluate the experience of a person just by looking at their personal list of favorites. Besides, gaming has much better distribution than anime and yet, there's several games that constantly appear on all "best games of all time" lists. So there's always the chance that many of the favorites mentioned here would still appear, even with better distribution. In fact, if you take a look at what's popular in Japan, you can see that many anime mentioned here are also quite popular there...

Also, I believe it's worth noting that our opinion is always limited by our experience and will always be... And even those that have watched little anime or played few games could have experienced some of them that we haven't, which could be seen as holes in our experience in comparison.

Even if they were to only be attracted to Shonen Jump like fair.

This is besides your point, but I don't see how can you lump all Shonen Jump series like if they were the same. For example, Dragon Ball, I''s, Mazinger Z and City Hunter are all from Shonen Jump, yet they're completely different from each other.

When we were all four or five years old. We would all say that Sesame Street was one of the best television shows. For us it may seem true, but that is only the result of us not having a lot of experience which would allows us to develop our own unique taste.

Not the best example... Children are not capable of understanding many things, at least completely, due to being still in development from a biological point of view, not to mention their limited access to different media for a variety of reasons. Still, I do get your point and I agree that the more experience you have, the more you learn about your personal taste. Although let's keep in mind that our personal taste and views are always subject to change, not just by the things we watch, but also just by life itself.

Where I disagree is when you go from being a more "refined" experience to you to a more valuable opinion to everyone else.

Anyway it is a good thing to argue for people to try more series out. Rather then take what is handed to them it is only good for the medium. You can't really argue that it is a choice born out of knowledge. It is just a choice born out of slim pickings. You know we could always put this to the test by asking in the future for someone to provide a qualification for their choice by saying how many series they have watched.

As I said before, I completely agree with keeping an open mind and trying new things. But I completely disagree with the assumption that those who choose popular or shounen anime as their favorites must be ignorant, or that we should value people's opinion by how much anime/games/movies they have experienced. But of course, we're all free to choose the opinions we pay attention to anyway... 

And what about the overall knowledge of said person ? What if someone knows a lot about anime but little about anything else ? Our whole cultural knowledge can also influence our judgment on the anime/games/music we consume, not just our experience on said medium. So why stopping on that ?

Should we provide a résumé every time we give an opinion on lists like these ?



seiya19 said:
outlawauron said:
seiya19 said:
outlawauron said:
seiya19 said:
Dodece said:

Of course Bebop and Geass popular, they're huge (honestly, every show in my top 5 is pretty popular with KnK and Nodame being primarily in Japan). I'm not sure how I ever said I didn't have an open mind about other popular shows (especially considering how many of them I've seen!). Just because something is popular doesn't mean I start to dislike it, a hipster I am not.

Second part, I disagree wholeheartedly. It's like a movie critic, would you take Roger Ebert's word on a movie over user comments on fandango.com? The users view aren't worthless, but I believe the critique or view of more versed person, in whatever the topic of interest is, is far more valuable than your average opinion. While that is a rather big strecth to compare someone like Ebert to our discussion, I do believe it helps make my point.

While it is mostly anecdotal and personal experience, I disagree with the bolded. As you said, there's no evidence we can grasp upon, but I think it works a lot like nostalgia. I refuse to watch DBZ again as I have fond memories and do not wish to lose those fond memories.

To the last part, due to you playing games over many years, I would value your opinion far more than someone who just started gaming and when they do, they only play Halo or the new Call of Duty. Doesn't make their opinion worthless or somehow bad, it's just that they have really expanded beyond whatever their 'comfort zone' is.

Well, when someone claims that "most popular shows are indeed terrible" I take it as a sign that said person is biased against them... Specially when the same person is arguing that some popular shows are only included here because of a lack of knowledge from those that chose them. But ok, if you don't believe there's a relation between popularity and quality, then we agree.

As for the second part, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think the opinion of any critic on a certain work is more valid than anyone else's, as long as they both have experienced it, of course. While the critic or more experienced person might be able to recognize certain elements or their origin that the average person wouldn't, I don't believe this makes their opinion more valid. As I mentioned before, the evaluation of whatever information you have is still subjective, so it really only applies to your personal views. If we were arguing about an objective topic, it would obviously be a different story. For example, Roger Ebert's opinion would be very valuable if I wanted to make a documental about the history of cinema.

Furthermore, I would argue that experience can be a double-edge sword when it comes to the evaluation of an artistic work. The more experience you have, the bigger the risk of being influenced by it... Keeping an open mind is not just about trying new things, but also about trying to see things from different and new perspectives, which is easier to do when you don't have that much experience to begin with. This is arguable of course, and a long discussion by itself, but you get the point. 

While it is mostly anecdotal and personal experience, I disagree with the bolded.

I don't understand why you disagreed with the bolded when all I said was that you can't prove it, which you agreed to. Anyway, you're obviously free to believe that it's just nostalgia, but in the end it's just that, a belief. The way I see it, nostalgia can only get you so far, and when you re-experience the same work after a long time and still believe it's one of the best, then that alone proves it's not just that to me. I could name several examples of this, but of course, I can't prove them to you unless you could get into my head... So, either you take my word for it or you don't. In any case, this kind of arguments could be used the other way around, like for example claiming that you only like a recent show so much because it's still fresh to you and you haven't given it enough time to properly evaluate its importance. And I for one believe that the test of time is the biggest test that an artistic work can face, as it's much more difficult to stay relevant after long periods of time than being the best only the moment you appear. On a related note, I'm currently watching Dragon Ball Z on Cartoon Network... (the Latin American version is not edited like the US one though)

And about the last part, keep in mind that there's a difference between having a sizeable amount of experience and the variety of said experience. If someone has seen 100 anime but they're all shoujo while another person has seen only 50 but from different genres, who has more anime experience ? It's certainly arguable, right ?

I'll start by replying to the last. I believe that having depth and breadth in watching things is far more valuable than just sheer numbers.

To the first, I don't think there is a direct relation between popularity and quality, it's just that I find Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece (among others, but I'll stick to the big 3) to be very mediocre shows at best. That's pretty much all I'll say on that topic.

As far as nostalgia, it's a mixed bag. I'll use DBZ again as I know how poorly the story is told and just how badly it progressed. While I still enjoy it as a whole, watching ~274 episodes again would be miserable. I believe they bothered to release Kai because of this. Now, there are shows that still stand up regardless. I've rewatched Outlaw Star, Gundam Wing, Trigun, and Bebop. Some of the shows, I've seen as recently as a few months, and I still believe they're just as great or better than the first time I watched. It really just kinda depends on the show (I won't dare delve in Pokemon).

Lastly, I said that I couldn't 'prove' my side in that argument as my evidence is entirely anecdotal and personal experience, and that I still disagree with you regardless. I will say that I generally try to speak or make these lists as objectively as possible. There's many shows that I've given 7s and 8s that I really love, but there's some core flaws with the show (it's the same way for games).



"We'll toss the dice however they fall,
And snuggle the girls be they short or tall,
Then follow young Mat whenever he calls,
To dance with Jak o' the Shadows."

Check out MyAnimeList and my Game Collection. Owner of the 5 millionth post.