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Forums - General - 9/11 was a conspiracy not a conspiracy theory

 

Do you believe the USA government was involved in 9/11?

Yes 181 40.58%
 
No 201 45.07%
 
Maybe 61 13.68%
 
Total:443
Porcupine_I said:
I don't know why conspiracy theories always have to be so complicated!

if the government was involved in ANY way, i would picture it like this:

"Mister President we have information about a planned Terrorist attack on the United States"

"Terrorist attack? Bombs huh? Well, i was looking for a excuse to wage war anyway, we stand down and let them do their thing and see what happens"

*WTC goes down*

WTF i didn't expect THAT!


I know right? I mean blowing up the building using thermite (or actually pretty much any explosive, thermite seems popular though) would require many people to plant the explosives, never being noticed by anybody, everybody who went into the building to ignore the telltale signs of thermite, the vast majority of structural engineers in the world to ignore that the buildings didn't fall as expected (as it stands the vast majority say the buildings fell as expected) and also for there to be a succesful terrorist attack.

Whereas the CIA ignoring the potential threat only involves the intelligence community and perhaps the White House. Why can't conspiracy theorists pick the somwhat reasonable conspiracy over the 'what the fuck?' conspiracy?

 

Also why do people post videos of an architect talking about the collapse like he's an expert? Architects are more on the artistic side of building design than structural.



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What people don't realise is that giant buildings are designed so the basement and sub-basement structure are keys to the under pinning of these buildings and in the case of the trade centre bombing it was this very reason why the building survived that event because it was near its strongest points.
so the planes hitting near the top did a lot of damage and the impact of two of the worlds largest structures did the rest. people make bold sweeping theory's off what amounts to hear say. its like when John Lennon was shot i told some one there would be a conspiracy theory AKA the Kennedys and sure enough it happened. it human nature



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voty2000 said:
hudsoniscool said:
Metallicube said:

Kasz, don't make me laugh with that junk. debunking911.com is the biggest excuse I've seen for a "debunking" site ever. I have read through many of their arguments thoroughly and they do nothing more than distort information, cherrypick, and use vague statements and speculation to try and explain the mess that is the government's official conspiracy - a story with more holes in it than swiss cheese. They pick out the seemginly weakest arguments, while ignoring several others, to try and sway weak minded people into believing them. That is manipulation at its finest.

I'm sorry, but nothing is EVER going to convince me that a 47 story steel reinforced concrete building can implode in 7 seconds without explosives, especially when no plane hit it. The same way nothing will convince me that santa claus exists. There comes a point where you have to separate yourself from the mainstream media propaganda they consistantly pound into your head, and trust your own common sense, your own intuition.

theres no point in arguing with these people. They are brainwashed and narrowminded. Nothing you can say will change there view. All the facts are there but they just cant accept it. If you presented all the facts to everyone in the country a good 30-40% would never believe you because they dont think "the best country in the world" would ever do anything like that.


I love this mentality.  We can't convince people that our theory is true because we have crappy "evidence" so they must be brainwashed.  Calling people brainwashed is a cop-out.  It means that you can't provide sufficient proof to convert so you hide behind this saying to make you feel better about your flawed opinion.

Let's look at this logically.  There are thousands upon thousands of engineers across the globe.  Now, we can assume that the engineers in the USA are unreliable because they don't want to make their country look bad and I'll concede to that even though it is crap. 

But there is the rest of the world.  The rest of the world that looks for any flaw that the USA has and uses it as ammo against them.  Do you actually think that all those engineers all over the world would just let this slip?  If it was a conspiracy, do you honestly think there wouldn't be thousands of engineers showing conclusively that the towers were in fact detonated?  An engineer in China or Afghanistan has to reason to defend the USA so why aren't they speaking up? 

But no, lets believe a few folks and ignore the vast majority of real engineers with integrity.  I just can't comprehend people that ignore the fact that if planes couldn't cause the towers to collapse then thousands of credible engineers would point it out. 

But I am brainwashed I guess because I use logic.  It's just funny hearing it from you.  It's like a blind man telling me my shirt is pink when it's actually green.

We show you the facts and then you sweep them under the table ignoring them. This entire time we present solid proof that there was a conspiracy and you guys dont even argue against them you just say something thats irrelevent(like whats bolded). You ignore suck facts as:

Never has a high rise steel building collapsed because of fire before or after 9/11 but that day it happened "3 times". there was even a test on a high rise steel building in which they burned it as hot as they could for something like 18 hours and it never collapsed but the buildings during 911 did only after a few hours.

jetfuel cannot burn at high enough temperature to cause steel to melt into molten metal.

thermite was found at several differant areas. thermite is used as an explosive and can easily melt steel unlike jetfuel.

Hundreds of evewitnesses reported explosions, Before the planes hit and right before the buildings came down.

All 4 black boxes were never recovered. since they were put into planes only 1 black box has never been recovered(not including planes that crashed in water or plane that crashed at 19k feet).

All 3 buildings fell as if they were demolished. Both the twin towers had week sides because of the planes of if they were to fall they should have fallen over at its weekest points not straight down into its self

George bush lied about seeing the  the plane hit the tower

One of the head guys that was investigating said there was no molten metal week after 911 a clear lie

I would put more but i have to go. Explain to me how these facts are wrong.



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hudsoniscool said:
 

 

Never has a high rise steel building collapsed because of fire before or after 9/11 but that day it happened "3 times". there was even a test on a high rise steel building in which they burned it as hot as they could for something like 18 hours and it never collapsed but the buildings during 911 did only after a few hours.

jetfuel cannot burn at high enough temperature to cause steel to melt into molten metal.

thermite was found at several differant areas. thermite is used as an explosive and can easily melt steel unlike jetfuel.

Hundreds of evewitnesses reported explosions, Before the planes hit and right before the buildings came down.

All 4 black boxes were never recovered. since they were put into planes only 1 black box has never been recovered(not including planes that crashed in water or plane that crashed at 19k feet).

All 3 buildings fell as if they were demolished. Both the twin towers had week sides because of the planes of if they were to fall they should have fallen over at its weekest points not straight down into its self

George bush lied about seeing the  the plane hit the tower

One of the head guys that was investigating said there was no molten metal week after 911 a clear lie

I would put more but i have to go. Explain to me how these facts are wrong.


bet there werent any that had airliners of these sizes fly into them or were hit by debris from 110 story buildings either. so logically these never happened here either.

ok, but irrelevant since there wasnt any molten steel. 

your thermite theory has been destroyed earlier in this thread, please follow along.

electrical explosions/sounds of the building collapsing.  you have nothing to suggest any sounds were from explosives.  but i do know the building collapsed and it was full of shit that would have done that.

generally when planes go down, pilots try to minimize damage to their plane.  these black boxes are not indestructible.  they flew at high speeds into a building, were in an environment that was hot enough to melt aluminum and then had a building collapse on them. do the math

they certainly did not.  unless it was the crew from jackass who did the demolition and then fucked up majorly on top of that.   they fell in the manner they did because of how they were constructed and the laws of gravity.

 

even if he did say that i dont see what the fuck it has to do with anything?  he was definitely very prone to misspeaking at times.

 

why would there be molten metal a week after the crash?



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Metallicube said:

I will repeat this again... A Steel reinforced concrete building CANNOT, I repeat, CANNOT implode at the rate of free fall, without explosive devices of some kind being planted. The towers came down in 10 seconds roughly, meaning the buildings came down at a rate of TEN floors per SECOND. Imagine your house. Then stack 4 more of those on top. Then add thick steel reinforcement, including a massive steel core holding them up. You bilnk, and it is all gone, pulverized.. In ONE SECOND. Do you really see such a scenario occuring without explosives?

It would need to be on a different planet to come down in one second.  Your example would take 2.917 seconds to fall in a vacuum with g being 9.8 m/s² and a structure one tenth the size of the World Trade Center. 

 

I don't really have the patience to argue about this topic for the 300th time, but are people really asserting that steel needs to melt for a building to fail?  You don't have to actually melt metal to make it malleable, and if it is malleable, it isn't a very good structure.  That's not even getting into the fact that the impact took out or weakened plenty of the exterior and core columns, plus the extra few hundred tons of airplane that was sitting in the building.



hudsoniscool said:
voty2000 said:


I love this mentality.  We can't convince people that our theory is true because we have crappy "evidence" so they must be brainwashed.  Calling people brainwashed is a cop-out.  It means that you can't provide sufficient proof to convert so you hide behind this saying to make you feel better about your flawed opinion.

Let's look at this logically.  There are thousands upon thousands of engineers across the globe.  Now, we can assume that the engineers in the USA are unreliable because they don't want to make their country look bad and I'll concede to that even though it is crap. 

But there is the rest of the world.  The rest of the world that looks for any flaw that the USA has and uses it as ammo against them.  Do you actually think that all those engineers all over the world would just let this slip?  If it was a conspiracy, do you honestly think there wouldn't be thousands of engineers showing conclusively that the towers were in fact detonated?  An engineer in China or Afghanistan has to reason to defend the USA so why aren't they speaking up? 

But no, lets believe a few folks and ignore the vast majority of real engineers with integrity.  I just can't comprehend people that ignore the fact that if planes couldn't cause the towers to collapse then thousands of credible engineers would point it out. 

But I am brainwashed I guess because I use logic.  It's just funny hearing it from you.  It's like a blind man telling me my shirt is pink when it's actually green.

We show you the facts and then you sweep them under the table ignoring them. This entire time we present solid proof that there was a conspiracy and you guys dont even argue against them you just say something thats irrelevent(like whats bolded). You ignore suck facts as:

Never has a high rise steel building collapsed because of fire before or after 9/11 but that day it happened "3 times". there was even a test on a high rise steel building in which they burned it as hot as they could for something like 18 hours and it never collapsed but the buildings during 911 did only after a few hours.

jetfuel cannot burn at high enough temperature to cause steel to melt into molten metal.

thermite was found at several differant areas. thermite is used as an explosive and can easily melt steel unlike jetfuel.

Hundreds of evewitnesses reported explosions, Before the planes hit and right before the buildings came down.

All 4 black boxes were never recovered. since they were put into planes only 1 black box has never been recovered(not including planes that crashed in water or plane that crashed at 19k feet).

All 3 buildings fell as if they were demolished. Both the twin towers had week sides because of the planes of if they were to fall they should have fallen over at its weekest points not straight down into its self

George bush lied about seeing the  the plane hit the tower

One of the head guys that was investigating said there was no molten metal week after 911 a clear lie

I would put more but i have to go. Explain to me how these facts are wrong.

Because the are not facts, they are ramblings from a few guys who are either un-qualified to speak or are insane.  All the proof in the world has been given and you guys always ignore and blindly say that our sources are wrong.  Look at Kaz's link because it has more credibility than any source on your side. 

I like how you ignore my statement on way engineers around the world haven't come forward and say something is up.  Only a few looney's say anything and you eat their crap up. 

One thing that cannot be denied from the Popular Mechanics report is that steel does not have to be molten to collapse.  It simply needs to be heated up to a degree that jet fuel can manage.  Here's an experiment.  Heat some lead with a butane torch and hold it with a pair of pliers.  Put pressure on the lead and it will become soft well before it melts or becomes molten.  Same thing with steel.

It's impossible to convince you that your obviously wrong but maybe a few folks will read this and decide once and for all that this conspiracy is full of barely believable crap by un-reliable sources. 

And with this post I'm done with this thread.  I will go back to being brainwashed and accepted by society and will use my logic to function properly.  Goodbye and goodnight, I'm watching Shutter Island.  I hope there is not a hidden message deep within it that will make me have the uncontrollable desire to buy new shutters for my windows.



hudsoniscool said:

We show you the facts and then you sweep them under the table ignoring them. This entire time we present solid proof that there was a conspiracy and you guys dont even argue against them you just say something thats irrelevent(like whats bolded). You ignore suck facts as:

Never has a high rise steel building collapsed because of fire before or after 9/11 but that day it happened "3 times". there was even a test on a high rise steel building in which they burned it as hot as they could for something like 18 hours and it never collapsed but the buildings during 911 did only after a few hours.

How often have passenger jets flown into skyscrapers? Most fires don't burn on large quantities of jet fuel and so are not very comparable.

jetfuel cannot burn at high enough temperature to cause steel to melt into molten metal.

The steel didn't melt, it weakened causing the structure to no longer be able to support the weight above it. There is a significant difference between melting and weakening.

thermite was found at several differant areas. thermite is used as an explosive and can easily melt steel unlike jetfuel.

Thermite isn't an explosive (it reacts and gives off heat, but doesn't explode) and also absurd amounts of it would be required to cut through a beam. It doesn't match your explosve theory and wouldn't work for demolishing the WTC anyway.

Hundreds of evewitnesses reported explosions, Before the planes hit and right before the buildings came down.

There are videos of the entire thing from many different angles. Eyewitness reports therefore mean jack, eyewitness reports have always been sketchy evidence (for anything) and when you have hard records of what they were seeing they can basically be discounted.

All 4 black boxes were never recovered. since they were put into planes only 1 black box has never been recovered(not including planes that crashed in water or plane that crashed at 19k feet).

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/14/pentagon-fire.htm

I'm not sure about the WTC ones, but their loss would hardly be surprising.

All 3 buildings fell as if they were demolished. Both the twin towers had week sides because of the planes of if they were to fall they should have fallen over at its weekest points not straight down into its self

Do you have any actual backing for this idea or is it simply what you intuitively think? Gravity is the driving force and acts directly downwards. Once the structural integrity of the building is compromised that's where the building goes.

George bush lied about seeing the  the plane hit the tower

If all of George Bush's mis-statements were some kind of conspiracy then you'd be up to your ears in them.

One of the head guys that was investigating said there was no molten metal week after 911 a clear lie

I would put more but i have to go. Explain to me how these facts are wrong.





hudsoniscool said:

jetfuel cannot burn at high enough temperature to cause steel to melt into molten metal.

Lol.  Tell me, why should we listen to someone that doesn't even have a basic understanding of strength of materials?  Go take an engineering class on the subject and get back to us when you finish.



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Watch this following clip of a controlled implosion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaBQ3AkRetI&feature=fvwrel

Notice how there is very large explosions that can be heard from miles away many seconds before the building appears to start collapsing. Pay attention to the fact that the building appears to fall "collapse from the bottom" and in "Columns" which is a common characteristic of controlled implosions. Finally, see how the dust cloud appears at the bottom.

Now pay attention to the collapse of the twin towers, the absence of any loud explosions, the fact that the structure breaks apart floor by floor as the weight of the building "disintegrates" under the force of the building above it falling on it, and how the dust cloud comes from the floor where the plane crash happened and moves down floor by floor.