RolStoppable said: If I remember correctly, Sony made more than $3 billion profits with the PS1 and about $2.3 billion with the PS2, combined this amounts to roughly $5.5 billion in profits for Sony's gaming division before the fiscal year the PS3 launched in. In fiscal year 2006 (when the PS3 launched), the gaming division posted a loss of $2 billion, for the first half of fiscal year 2007, the gaming division posted a loss of $1 billion. So by doing the maths, this leaves roughly $2.5 billion of profits for Sony's gaming division since it exists, with further losses expected for at least another year. With how things are going, the PS3 definitely has the potential to eat up all of Sony's gaming division's profits they had made during two absolutely dominating console generations.

 As usual, Rol, your memory is very good. Sony has eaten through the profits that the PS2 made.

There we go, Rol backs me up with 2.3 million.

and @ Xman again... yes i agree that PS2 software made more than 2 billion... but the hardware was never profitable, thus took away any profits the software made.

I don't see how the profits of the most profitable part of gaming (software) for two consoles that sold more software than any other console... are comparible in any way to PS3 hardware losses?

fkusumot said: X-Man said: fkusumot said: X-Man said: fkusumot said: X-Man said: I'm not talking about share holders, i'm talking about how much Sony has made from the Playstation brand. Software sales alone make up the losses from the PS3. And again, MS aren't making money, they're recouping. Nintendo are making a killing though. What? What is your source for this information? My conclusion is based on logic, not a source. Sony have sold around 1.8 billion units of software with the PS1 and PS2. You do the math. Well, your logic is wrong. Your conclusion is flawed. I have a question for you - Do you think Sony made less than 2 billion dollars on PS1 and PS2 software? Try and give a yes or no answer, and then your reasoning, if you have any.  Your logic is flawed because you're trying to prove a point by making up numbers in your head instead of looking them up. You've already admitted that you made up your numbers so until you can come back with some real ones you can logic away at this and prove whatever you want with those numbers in your head.

Lol, it's almost pathetic how you're trying to avoid discussing this. And no, I didn't make up the numbers -

http://www.playstation.com/business.html

Over 1.9 billion units of PS1 and PS2 software. Over 2 billion including the PSP.

Yes, that's right. I'm right and you're wrong.

X-Man said: Japan is by far the smallest region but it's certainly not insignificant.

it depends on the ponit of view you are considering..to me Japan is a little more than statitics.

 

• western producers are only interested in EU+NA userbase as usually western-made games only sell in EU or NA...so as long as the gap between x360 and Ps3 remain that high in the western world then x360 will remain the first choice for western developers (=the ports from x360 to ps3 will be more frequent than from ps3 to x360...with predictible results for the quality of games: usually multiplatform games will be better on x360).
• wester gamers are usually interested in western-type games (FPS, Sprts, RTS, wester RPG like Oblivion or the Witcher, driving etc etc)...ok, there are some exceptions but the only genre that comes to my mind that depends on japan userbase and that (some) wester-gamers appreciate is JRGP (like FF) ...ironically enough the x360 for the moment has more jrpg than PS3 (btw this so far hasn't helped the x360 sales at all both in western and japan market...probably is a question depending on the different demographics between PS3 users and x360 users but i doubt that jrpgs alone can make a real difference in Europe or America: at best they can help)

In conclusion as long as the gap between the two systems will remain that high in western markets i woudn't say that Sony has won the war...sure, PS3 has gained some momentum in europe (and probably is on its way to overtake x360 in "others")  but i don't think this is enough until the situation in US will remain 10M vs 3.5M..and overall wasn't for Japan market (a little more than statistics from my point of view as explained before) the gap between x360 and PS3 would have been widening by about 50k per week during this holiday season.

 

hold on a second
selling just more in total sales isn't enough for sony to label the ps3 the winner against the 360

sony needs to high not just higher total sales but quite a lot higher total sales

going from 120 million ps2's versus 24 xbox's
to 60 million ps3s against 40 million 360'
is not a win for sony if something like this would happen

it would mean that ms hasn't actually doubled it's sales and sony has got half left

and this is just an example of course
but for sony who has just sold around 230 playstations in the last years, just beating ms without a great margin is what you call a pyrrus victory..

TWRoO said: There we go, Rol backs me up with 2.3 million. and @ Xman again... yes i agree that PS2 software made more than 2 billion... but the hardware was never profitable, thus took away any profits the software made. I don't see how the profits of the most profitable part of gaming (software) for two consoles that sold more software than any other console... are comparible in any way to PS3 hardware losses?

You're making up facts out of thin air again, since when was the hardware never profitable? And still no source to confirm whether the money was made from hardware, software, or both.

X-Man said: fkusumot said: X-Man said: fkusumot said: X-Man said: fkusumot said: X-Man said: I'm not talking about share holders, i'm talking about how much Sony has made from the Playstation brand. Software sales alone make up the losses from the PS3. And again, MS aren't making money, they're recouping. Nintendo are making a killing though. What? What is your source for this information? My conclusion is based on logic, not a source. Sony have sold around 1.8 billion units of software with the PS1 and PS2. You do the math. Well, your logic is wrong. Your conclusion is flawed. I have a question for you - Do you think Sony made less than 2 billion dollars on PS1 and PS2 software? Try and give a yes or no answer, and then your reasoning, if you have any. Your logic is flawed because you're trying to prove a point by making up numbers in your head instead of looking them up. You've already admitted that you made up your numbers so until you can come back with some real ones you can logic away at this and prove whatever you want with those numbers in your head. Lol, it's almost pathetic how you're trying to avoid discussing this. And no, I didn't make up the numbers - http://www.playstation.com/business.html Over 1.9 billion units of PS1 and PS2 software. Over 2 billion including the PSP. Yes, that's right. I'm right and you're wrong.

You're carrying on an argument about numbers and making them up as you go. On some forums that's considered trolling. Please feel free to continue.

fkusumot said: X-Man said: fkusumot said: X-Man said: fkusumot said: X-Man said: fkusumot said: X-Man said: I'm not talking about share holders, i'm talking about how much Sony has made from the Playstation brand. Software sales alone make up the losses from the PS3. And again, MS aren't making money, they're recouping. Nintendo are making a killing though. What? What is your source for this information? My conclusion is based on logic, not a source. Sony have sold around 1.8 billion units of software with the PS1 and PS2. You do the math. Well, your logic is wrong. Your conclusion is flawed. I have a question for you - Do you think Sony made less than 2 billion dollars on PS1 and PS2 software? Try and give a yes or no answer, and then your reasoning, if you have any. Your logic is flawed because you're trying to prove a point by making up numbers in your head instead of looking them up. You've already admitted that you made up your numbers so until you can come back with some real ones you can logic away at this and prove whatever you want with those numbers in your head. Lol, it's almost pathetic how you're trying to avoid discussing this. And no, I didn't make up the numbers - http://www.playstation.com/business.html Over 1.9 billion units of PS1 and PS2 software. Over 2 billion including the PSP. Yes, that's right. I'm right and you're wrong. You're carrying on an argument about numbers and making them up as you go. On some forums that's considered trolling. Please feel free to continue.

Lol, you must hate being wrong. Nervous laughter will soothe the pain.

OK. First lets look at last generation. Sony won. and Sony made money. M$ came in second last gen, and Ninty came in third. Microsoft lost an estimated 4 billion, and last placer Ninty turned a good profit. Is selling more and losing millions of dollars while your losing competitor made money really winning?

Now current gen financials a few months back shows..... (from http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=9200)

"over the past nine/ten years, Sony's game division has contributed a net of 652 billion yen ($5.5 billion) in positive operating income to Sony's bottom line.

Since then we have the '07 results for the gaming division, which were -232.3 billion yen. So far in fiscal '08, the total inclusive of the most recent reported quarter has been -126 billion yen.

That's a loss of -358.6billion yen so far in '07/'08, which is more than 1/2 of what the gaming division has made in the previous ten years. Actually the PS3 drain is bigger than 358.3 billion yen, because all the these figures are inclusive of PS2 and PSP profits which partially cover the loss due to the PS3.

PS3 losses are likely to be over 500+ billion yen. Fiscal year ending in March 06 includes profits of only 8.7 billon yen. Q1 was -5.9, Q2 was 8.2, Q3 was 67.8 with a -61.4 for Q4 with the losses put on the shoulder of the PS3.

So the PS3 is costing Sony over half as much as they have made in profit since they entered the console business, and PS2 sales and growing PSP sales in the same perion are not helping moderate the losses."

If these numbers are indeed correct (and they seem to be as they are derived from http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/ , from Sony's own financial reports to eliminate error and spin. (by Carl B @ Beyond3D)). I'd be extremely spooked if I was a Sony shareholder. Sony needs the rest of '08 to show a dramatic change. They better hope the B/C issue doesn't bite them in the rear too hard (and I believe it will).

Now on the other hand, remember these numbers are nowhere nearly as bad as MS, but they are headed in the same direction. M$ lost 4 billion on xb1 and I'm pretty sure this is the first quarter they actually showed a profit. So Sony IS doing bad financially with ps3, but not as bad as MS ... yet. "

 

Question: Who's the biggest loser?

Yes I agree with you. M$ just isn't able to take in other regions besides the US.