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Forums - General Discussion - Obama calls for Israel to restore 1967 boundaries

MrBubbles said:
Mr Khan said:

It's a simple matter that the Palestinians desire a free state, therefore they should get one. It's not about historical claims which we cannot enforce unless we resort to barbarism (like Mr. Bubbles happy fun "They're lucky they didn't blow up the dome of the rock" claim), it's about the Palestinians getting what they as a people want. The harder question is who defines "people," mostly in right-of-return matters

The problem being Israel has a very welcoming immigration policy for Jews, so similar rights should be given to Palestinians expelled before, and land enough given that would allow the Palestinians to return. Nominally the territories should at least be homogenous too, which is why i would support moving the settlers away from their various pockets and into one tract of land more fairly distributed (for their numbers, the settlers own disproportionately too much land), as i can't foresee any scenario that wouldn't involve Israel's apartheid-esque controls over the West Bank in the name of "keeping the settlers safe."

 

certainly not as barbaric as trying to usurp another groups religion and then building on their holy sites.

Which they did like 1300 years ago. There's some threshold beyond which no-one should have to take responsibility for historical actions. I mean, should Iraq start demanding that Mongolia pay for the irrevocable damage the Mongols did to Mesopotamian irrigation systems and the untold destruction of literature held in Baghdad's libraries when they invaded about 750 years ago?

Israel as a modern government can be held responsible for their actions, and would justly be taken to task if they ever did such a thing (through legitimate channels, let alone the endless wave of extranational Islamic terror it would inspire), but the Palestinians certainly cannot be held responsible for something their ancestors did 1300 years ago.

It would be just as stupid for Israel, say, to start demanding reparations from Spain for the Inquisition



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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Mr Khan said:

It's a simple matter that the Palestinians desire a free state, therefore they should get one. It's not about historical claims which we cannot enforce unless we resort to barbarism (like Mr. Bubbles happy fun "They're lucky they didn't blow up the dome of the rock" claim), it's about the Palestinians getting what they as a people want. The harder question is who defines "people," mostly in right-of-return matters

The problem being Israel has a very welcoming immigration policy for Jews, so similar rights should be given to Palestinians expelled before, and land enough given that would allow the Palestinians to return. Nominally the territories should at least be homogenous too, which is why i would support moving the settlers away from their various pockets and into one tract of land more fairly distributed (for their numbers, the settlers own disproportionately too much land), as i can't foresee any scenario that wouldn't involve Israel's apartheid-esque controls over the West Bank in the name of "keeping the settlers safe."


Well... they are lucky Israel didn't blow up the dome of the rock.

If the dome of the rock was somewhere else you can gurantee they would of rebuilt the Temple of Solomon.  Had the reverse been true... I doubt you'd be seeing any Jewish holy site remaining that was in the way of reclaiming a holy site.

Not that it has anything to do with the negotiations.

As for it being homogenous....

For it to be one strip of land.... the land swaps would nearly have to involve the ENTIRITY of Gaza and then would cut israel in half... have you ever seen the pre 1967 borders?

 

 

Complete with major cities BEFORE the settlers, to point out it's not the settlers they are protecting.  When Hamas fires rockets... they don't fire them at settlers.  They fire them at cities with what is within Israel.

I mean... what do you do their?  Trade ALL of Gaza for a bunch of land north leading to Lake tiberus.



Rath said:
ImJustBayuum said:

This is nothing in comparison to a recognition of the "right to return" of Palestinians...But we all know that is not going to happen in our lifetime or ever.


Right of return will never happen because it would damn near stop Israel being a Jewish state. Which they won't allow.

The Palestinians know that as well, which is why they will use giving up the right of return as a bargaining chip.

 

But fuck yeah Obama! It's nice to see the head of the chief negotiator between the two sides not blatantly pander to their ally. The 1967 borders simply must be the start of negotiations - and East Jerusalem simply must be Palestinian.

No it must not. In East Jerusalem lies the Old City of Jerusalem which is the historical city of Jerusalem. The Jews will never lose control of it ever again and certainly not to Arabs who have destroyed countless Jewish holy sites in Jerusalem through the centuries and up until 1967.



Slimebeast said:
Rath said:
ImJustBayuum said:

This is nothing in comparison to a recognition of the "right to return" of Palestinians...But we all know that is not going to happen in our lifetime or ever.


Right of return will never happen because it would damn near stop Israel being a Jewish state. Which they won't allow.

The Palestinians know that as well, which is why they will use giving up the right of return as a bargaining chip.

 

But fuck yeah Obama! It's nice to see the head of the chief negotiator between the two sides not blatantly pander to their ally. The 1967 borders simply must be the start of negotiations - and East Jerusalem simply must be Palestinian.

No it must not. In East Jerusalem lies the Old City of Jerusalem which is the historical city of Jerusalem. The Jews will never lose control of it ever again and certainly not to Arabs who have destroyed countless Jewish holy sites in Jerusalem through the centuries and up until 1967.

We can't hold these ancient claims as one being better than the other. We simply can't. Therefore the two have equal rights to access the whole area, nothing more or less is the solution that doesn't bring bias against one side or another



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

It's a simple matter that the Palestinians desire a free state, therefore they should get one. It's not about historical claims which we cannot enforce unless we resort to barbarism (like Mr. Bubbles happy fun "They're lucky they didn't blow up the dome of the rock" claim), it's about the Palestinians getting what they as a people want. The harder question is who defines "people," mostly in right-of-return matters

The problem being Israel has a very welcoming immigration policy for Jews, so similar rights should be given to Palestinians expelled before, and land enough given that would allow the Palestinians to return. Nominally the territories should at least be homogenous too, which is why i would support moving the settlers away from their various pockets and into one tract of land more fairly distributed (for their numbers, the settlers own disproportionately too much land), as i can't foresee any scenario that wouldn't involve Israel's apartheid-esque controls over the West Bank in the name of "keeping the settlers safe."


Well... they are lucky Israel didn't blow up the dome of the rock.

If the dome of the rock was somewhere else you can gurantee they would of rebuilt the Temple of Solomon.  Had the reverse been true... I doubt you'd be seeing any Jewish holy site remaining that was in the way of reclaiming a holy site.

Not that it has anything to do with the negotiations.

As for it being homogenous....

For it to be one strip of land.... the land swaps would nearly have to involve the ENTIRITY of Gaza and then would cut israel in half... have you ever seen the pre 1967 borders?

 

 

 

Complete with major cities BEFORE the settlers, to point out it's not the settlers they are protecting.  When Hamas fires rockets... they don't fire them at settlers.  They fire them at cities with what is within Israel.

I mean... what do you do their?  Trade ALL of Gaza for a bunch of land north leading to Lake tiberus.

I meant homogenous within the West Bank. E.g. no more settlements as isolated pockets or islands.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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The worst thing we (the USA, Europe, Japan, and the emerging markets) want is for this "Arab Spring" to blossom into a war where Israel is attacked by Egypt and Lebanon with the Palestinians doing their thing hoping a stray bottle rocket or two catches an Israeli settler's roof on fire.

Noone wants to pick sides because it sets us apart in a fashion that does not allow the newest fashion to be made in China and sold in a Banana Republic near you.

What we want is a Palestinian state. If that means piling sand in the Mediterranean to give them the land needed to accomodate their 15 child families with 10 sons who grow up to be suicide bombers, then so be it. Lets all unite our bulldozers and start piling the sand in the Mediterranean ala Minecraft style so these people have a space to live and grow.

The alternative are B-52 bombers, napalm and "collateral damage." In more honest times, we would call this genocide and turn the other cheek as the enemies of our enemies annihilate a people who are genetically predispositioned to strap on a vest with explosive sausages and yell, "Allahu Akbar" as they blow up a restaurant where a 5 year old is celebrating his/her birthday. Nowadays, we all faux outrage over the slightest booboo a Palestinian receives. We all collectively kiss it because not to do so would not make us uncool or NOT "politically correct" as the cool kids term it.



Killiana1a said:

The worst thing we (the USA, Europe, Japan, and the emerging markets) want is for this "Arab Spring" to blossom into a war where Israel is attacked by Egypt and Lebanon with the Palestinians doing their thing hoping a stray bottle rocket or two catches an Israeli settler's roof on fire.

Noone wants to pick sides because it sets us apart in a fashion that does not allow the newest fashion to be made in China and sold in a Banana Republic near you.

What we want is a Palestinian state. If that means piling sand in the Mediterranean to give them the land needed to accomodate their 15 child families with 10 sons who grow to be suicide bomber, then so be it. Lets all unite our bulldozers and start piling the sand in the Mediterranean ala Minecraft style so these people have a space to live and grow.

The alternative are B-52 bombers, napalm and "collateral damage." In more honest times, we would call this genocide and turn the other cheek. Nowadays, we all faux outrage over the slightest booboo a Palestinian receives. We all collectively kiss it because not to do so would not make us cool or "politically correct" as the cool kids term it.

That sword of political correctness cuts both ways. Nobody can come out as anti-Israel or the Israeli lobby flies off the handle with the anti-Semite card (waiting for it to happen here. American Jews themselves trend Liberal, unlike their brethren pretty much everywhere else, but the Israeli lobby is quite vocal). People like Jimmy Carter who draw comparisons between Israel and South Africa get booed down

It's a simple, straightforward procedure. Move the legal settlers to another spot so that the West Bank isn't criscrossed with "access highways" that serve to keep them penned in like cattle, treat the illegal settlers the same as you treat Hamas, and make Jerusalem a free International City. I believe the majority on both sides would be happy with it, aside from the more hawkish wing of Likud and the more strictly destructive wing of Hamas



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
Killiana1a said:

The worst thing we (the USA, Europe, Japan, and the emerging markets) want is for this "Arab Spring" to blossom into a war where Israel is attacked by Egypt and Lebanon with the Palestinians doing their thing hoping a stray bottle rocket or two catches an Israeli settler's roof on fire.

Noone wants to pick sides because it sets us apart in a fashion that does not allow the newest fashion to be made in China and sold in a Banana Republic near you.

What we want is a Palestinian state. If that means piling sand in the Mediterranean to give them the land needed to accomodate their 15 child families with 10 sons who grow to be suicide bomber, then so be it. Lets all unite our bulldozers and start piling the sand in the Mediterranean ala Minecraft style so these people have a space to live and grow.

The alternative are B-52 bombers, napalm and "collateral damage." In more honest times, we would call this genocide and turn the other cheek. Nowadays, we all faux outrage over the slightest booboo a Palestinian receives. We all collectively kiss it because not to do so would not make us cool or "politically correct" as the cool kids term it.

That sword of political correctness cuts both ways. Nobody can come out as anti-Israel or the Israeli lobby flies off the handle with the anti-Semite card (waiting for it to happen here. American Jews themselves trend Liberal, unlike their brethren pretty much everywhere else, but the Israeli lobby is quite vocal). People like Jimmy Carter who draw comparisons between Israel and South Africa get booed down

It's a simple, straightforward procedure. Move the legal settlers to another spot so that the West Bank isn't criscrossed with "access highways" that serve to keep them penned in like cattle, treat the illegal settlers the same as you treat Hamas, and make Jerusalem a free International City. I believe the majority on both sides would be happy with it, aside from the more hawkish wing of Likud and the more strictly destructive wing of Hamas

You'd be wrong.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3866367,00.html

However most of those asked by the survey supported the view that construction in east Jerusalem should be treated like construction in Tel Aviv, despite the harsh criticism launched at the government over the recent diplomatic dispute with the US.

 

Also worth noting is Eastern Jerusalems Palestines opinions on the matter...

http://www.pechterpolls.com/

 

More would rather be Israeli then Palestinian.  If the arguement is that Palestine should be it's own country because the Palestinians want it to be... shouldn't it also be true that the Palestinians of East Jerusalem should be allowed to be part of Israel if both they and the Israeli's want it to be so?

Why should those who want Palestine to exist but don't want to be a part of it, be forced to be in this case?  Because everyone else not in that area want it to be so?



Slimebeast said:
Rath said:
ImJustBayuum said:

This is nothing in comparison to a recognition of the "right to return" of Palestinians...But we all know that is not going to happen in our lifetime or ever.


Right of return will never happen because it would damn near stop Israel being a Jewish state. Which they won't allow.

The Palestinians know that as well, which is why they will use giving up the right of return as a bargaining chip.

 

But fuck yeah Obama! It's nice to see the head of the chief negotiator between the two sides not blatantly pander to their ally. The 1967 borders simply must be the start of negotiations - and East Jerusalem simply must be Palestinian.

No it must not. In East Jerusalem lies the Old City of Jerusalem which is the historical city of Jerusalem. The Jews will never lose control of it ever again and certainly not to Arabs who have destroyed countless Jewish holy sites in Jerusalem through the centuries and up until 1967.


I wish Christianity would have some sort of recognition in Israel or Jerusalim :( I mean, it is Christianity's holliest city.  Its all about muslims or Jews now.



Hopefully Obama keeps his promise:

God damn, he won't:

What a damn jerk!!!!