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Forums - General - being gay a choice vs born that way.

 

being gay a choice vs born that way.

It's a lifestyle choice 120 25.53%
 
Your born that way 250 53.19%
 
no opinion 36 7.66%
 
other---for anything I missed 62 13.19%
 
Total:468
Kasz216 said:

Imagine tommorrow you were transformed into a woman.

How you would feel tommorrow = being transgendered.

It's feeling that you weren't supposed to be born how you were and have the traits you were supposed to have.

That would be nothing like it. If I turned into a woman tomorrow I would feel weird because I would have breasts, a vagina, most likely be smaller in general, have a different chemical makeup, etc. I would feel weird because I would be a woman and have the previous memories of what it was like to be a man. That is not a transgendered persons' scenario. They didn't get transported from one set of organs to the next. It's all inside the mind, so my question is, what exactly can they feel only having had one half of the pie? What is inside our mind before birth that actually has this data? I don't think it's there, and this transgender nonsense of people that are born totally one way and want to be totally the other way is a mental defect that spawns during their life for one reason or another. I don't see how one is born with it, or born with anything in their head that says "I'm male" or "I'm female". 



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Onyxmeth said:
Kasz216 said:
Onyxmeth said:
Euphoria14 said:

I believe it is not a choice and I have my beliefs as to why and those beliefs came from experience.

 

Growing up in my household was tough at time because ever since my brother was around 3-4 years old he would constantly get caught taking my sisters and/or mothers clothing and wearing them. Whenever this happened he would get yelled at by my parents.

Now some may think that is mean, but it is understandable for a parent to freak out when their son thinks he is their daughter. This continued all throughout his life until he was about 25 years old. That is when he decided to move away and told us it was because he did not feel comfortable living a lie.

We asked what he meant and he told us it was because all his life he has felt like a woman trapped in a mans body. He was upset when he would get yelled at for trying to be who he felt he was supposed to be. Of course we stayed in contact as I love my family regardless of the choices they make or who they want to be.

 

After years of being away he recently moved back here. He had his named legally changed, took medication to develop breasts and now does modeling.

 

I doubt he could do all of this because he made a choice to become transgender. He was able to do all of this because that is who he really was. That is what he always felt, and now that he took that leap and decided to live his life the way he felt he was meant to he is now happier than I have ever seen and also much more confident.

Making a choice to just start being gay as opposed to being born that way does not yield these kinds of results. I don't care what anyone says.

I don't understand this at all. What exactly is feeling like a woman or feeling like a man? I'm a male and I can't identify anything within my mental makeup that sends out signs that I'm a man. Does anyone else have such signals to identify themselves as a certain gender? 

It's more a case of feeling something is off.

Imagine you were put in a womans body tommorrow.  You would never really get used to that right?  Basically what it's like for a transgendered person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

I would never get used to it if I was put in anyone elses' body, whether they were male or female, but that's simply because I'm used to being myself . That's not really a great line of logic. My point is, what is different inside the minds of the two genders to possibly mentally seperate the two? This seems like a type of people that can't deal with the fact they're either gay or don't fit the typical gender stereotypes, or both. 

Just to play this game though, if you woke up tomorrow and found yourself as the other gender, what exactly would feel wrong to you that wasn't a result of different physical traits and the chemical differences between men and women?

A) Not all transgendered people are gay.

B) Physical traits being wrong is an issue among some transgendred.

C)  Not so much "Don't fit the typical gender stereotypes" so much as fit the exact opposite gender sterotypes in most cases.

I can get into further detail, but what the Wikipeda link was to show is that there are a ton of different classifications for "trasngendered" people.

Perhaps this will help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

"As gender identity develops in children, so do sex-role stereotypes. Sex-role stereotypes are the beliefs, characteristics and behaviors of individual cultures that are deemed normal and appropriate for boys and girls to possess. These "norms" are influenced by family and friends, the mass-media, community and other socializing agents.    Since many cultures strongly disapprove of cross-gender behavior, it often results in significant problems for affected persons and those in close relationships with them. In many cases, transgendered individuals report discomfort stemming from the feeling that their bodies are "wrong" or meant to be different."

 

As for me... what would feel wrong outside the physical differences...  well first... why are we discounting the physical differences?  I would feel like I should have a penis.  Like people born women who think they should be men do.

Outside that... how EVERYBODY treats me.  A man and a woman are treated EXTREMLY different.  You can bet i'd go out of my way to look like a guy so I could get treated how I used too, and how i feel like I should.

Not fitting into gender norms is not really a trivial thing when you consider external pressure.

 

As for the "born that way" arguement.  Note that twins who are split at birth often develop similar hobbys and similar jobs and in general live similar lives.



Onyxmeth said:
Euphoria14 said:

I believe it is not a choice and I have my beliefs as to why and those beliefs came from experience.

 

Growing up in my household was tough at time because ever since my brother was around 3-4 years old he would constantly get caught taking my sisters and/or mothers clothing and wearing them. Whenever this happened he would get yelled at by my parents.

Now some may think that is mean, but it is understandable for a parent to freak out when their son thinks he is their daughter. This continued all throughout his life until he was about 25 years old. That is when he decided to move away and told us it was because he did not feel comfortable living a lie.

We asked what he meant and he told us it was because all his life he has felt like a woman trapped in a mans body. He was upset when he would get yelled at for trying to be who he felt he was supposed to be. Of course we stayed in contact as I love my family regardless of the choices they make or who they want to be.

 

After years of being away he recently moved back here. He had his named legally changed, took medication to develop breasts and now does modeling.

 

I doubt he could do all of this because he made a choice to become transgender. He was able to do all of this because that is who he really was. That is what he always felt, and now that he took that leap and decided to live his life the way he felt he was meant to he is now happier than I have ever seen and also much more confident.

Making a choice to just start being gay as opposed to being born that way does not yield these kinds of results. I don't care what anyone says.

I don't understand this at all. What exactly is feeling like a woman or feeling like a man? I'm a male and I can't identify anything within my mental makeup that sends out signs that I'm a man. Does anyone else have such signals to identify themselves as a certain gender? 

I find that interesting. I don't have any 'signals', but it's just a core part of who I am, something that I never think about because it just is. In fact to me being a male is probably the second most basic part of how I identify after being a human being.

I think it would be terribly confusing to have that identity and your physical body not match.



Kasz216 said:

It's more a case of feeling something is off.

Imagine you were put in a womans body tommorrow.  You would never really get used to that right?  Basically what it's like for a transgendered person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

What I got from that article is that transgendered people don't identify with traditional gender roles. I don't know why mutilating your body is considered the proper course of action...



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Kasz216 said:

A) Not all transgendered people are gay.

B) Physical traits being wrong is an issue among some transgendred.

C)  Not so much "Don't fit the typical gender stereotypes" so much as fit the exact opposite gender sterotypes in most cases.

I can get into further detail, but what the Wikipeda link was to show is that there are a ton of different classifications for "trasngendered" people.

Perhaps this will help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

"As gender identity develops in children, so do sex-role stereotypes. Sex-role stereotypes are the beliefs, characteristics and behaviors of individual cultures that are deemed normal and appropriate for boys and girls to possess. These "norms" are influenced by family and friends, the mass-media, community and other socializing agents.    Since many cultures strongly disapprove of cross-gender behavior, it often results in significant problems for affected persons and those in close relationships with them. In many cases, transgendered individuals report discomfort stemming from the feeling that their bodies are "wrong" or meant to be different."

 

As for me... what would feel wrong outside the physical differences...  well first... why are we discounting the physical differences?  I would feel like I should have a penis.  Like people born women who think they should be men do.

Outside that... how EVERYBODY treats me.  A man and a woman are treated EXTREMLY different.  You can bet i'd go out of my way to look like a guy so I could get treated how I used too, and how i feel like I should.

Not fitting into gender norms is not really a trivial thing when you consider external pressure.

 

As for the "born that way" arguement.  Note that twins who are split at birth often develop similar hobbys and similar jobs and in general live similar lives.

So it's nothing linked to biology then. Transgendered people "feel" like thy were born in the wrong body because rigid gender roles don't permit them to act accordingly to their true selves. And since gender roles are assigned based on biological sex, they go about solving their problems by trying to change their biological sex, a bad move in my honest opinion.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:

A) Not all transgendered people are gay.

B) Physical traits being wrong is an issue among some transgendred.

C)  Not so much "Don't fit the typical gender stereotypes" so much as fit the exact opposite gender sterotypes in most cases.

I can get into further detail, but what the Wikipeda link was to show is that there are a ton of different classifications for "trasngendered" people.

Perhaps this will help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

"As gender identity develops in children, so do sex-role stereotypes. Sex-role stereotypes are the beliefs, characteristics and behaviors of individual cultures that are deemed normal and appropriate for boys and girls to possess. These "norms" are influenced by family and friends, the mass-media, community and other socializing agents.    Since many cultures strongly disapprove of cross-gender behavior, it often results in significant problems for affected persons and those in close relationships with them. In many cases, transgendered individuals report discomfort stemming from the feeling that their bodies are "wrong" or meant to be different."

 

As for me... what would feel wrong outside the physical differences...  well first... why are we discounting the physical differences?  I would feel like I should have a penis.  Like people born women who think they should be men do.

Outside that... how EVERYBODY treats me.  A man and a woman are treated EXTREMLY different.  You can bet i'd go out of my way to look like a guy so I could get treated how I used too, and how i feel like I should.

Not fitting into gender norms is not really a trivial thing when you consider external pressure.

 

As for the "born that way" arguement.  Note that twins who are split at birth often develop similar hobbys and similar jobs and in general live similar lives.

So it's nothing linked to biology then. Transgendered people "feel" like thy were born in the wrong body because rigid gender roles don't permit them to act accordingly to their true selves. And since gender roles are assigned based on biological sex, they go about solving their problems by trying to change their biological sex, a bad move in my honest opinion.

For... SOME people.  There are so many types of transgendered people



@Sapphi_snake. I'm surprised at that opinion coming from you. Basically they don't feel like they belong in the body they were born in. They are (usually) much happier after having a sex change. So why should they not have a sex change?



Rath said:
Euphoria14 said:
Cheebee said:
Euphoria14 said:

They are actually still uncomfortable with the whole situation. They still say to him that he is their son and that his name is still Jason. From the outside looking in it may seem really mean, but in their shoes it must be tougher than any of us could imagine.

To think of your first born child, your son, raising him for 25 years and trying your best to do what is right for him, only to then have to accept that your son is now your daughter...

Hmm.. I can imagine, yeah. It must be tough on them.

Well, at least they still accept him as their child. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of parents who wouldn't want anything to do with him/her in such a situation. I hope it gets better over time.


I am positive that over time it will get better. 

However, what surprises me most is my grandmother. She lived through the 30's, 40's etc... and he did not want to tell her because she always loved him most and was scared that she would get freaked out about it and not be very accepting.

He finally worked up the courage and told her...

 

Now they spend more time together than ever before and I believe she is probably most supportive of him than anyone else. It is so fucking awesome.

She even takes him to his modeling shoots and lets him spend time at her home.


Out of interest, why do you refer to 'him' and 'he' all the time rather than 'her' and 'she'?

it should be that way because "he" is a "he". no matter how much he doesnt want to be.

his genes says he is a he, his dna says he is a he, his naturally produced hormones say he is a he, his genitalia says he is a he. 

taking hormones and getting surgeries to make your body look different, doesnt change your gender. its very stupid, that on legal documents you can have your sex changed. becasue in reality you cant, you can call yourself by a different name and sex, and look different, but you cant ever change your gender.



osamanobama said:
Rath said:


Out of interest, why do you refer to 'him' and 'he' all the time rather than 'her' and 'she'?

it should be that way because "he" is a "he". no matter how much he doesnt want to be.

his genes says he is a he, his dna says he is a he, his naturally produced hormones say he is a he, his genitalia says he is a he. 

taking hormones and getting surgeries to make your body look different, doesnt change your gender. its very stupid, that on legal documents you can have your sex changed. becasue in reality you cant, you can call yourself by a different name and sex, and look different, but you cant ever change your gender.


by almost every single definition of the word...you definitely can.



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osamanobama said:
Rath said:
Euphoria14 said:
Cheebee said:
Euphoria14 said:

They are actually still uncomfortable with the whole situation. They still say to him that he is their son and that his name is still Jason. From the outside looking in it may seem really mean, but in their shoes it must be tougher than any of us could imagine.

To think of your first born child, your son, raising him for 25 years and trying your best to do what is right for him, only to then have to accept that your son is now your daughter...

Hmm.. I can imagine, yeah. It must be tough on them.

Well, at least they still accept him as their child. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of parents who wouldn't want anything to do with him/her in such a situation. I hope it gets better over time.


I am positive that over time it will get better. 

However, what surprises me most is my grandmother. She lived through the 30's, 40's etc... and he did not want to tell her because she always loved him most and was scared that she would get freaked out about it and not be very accepting.

He finally worked up the courage and told her...

 

Now they spend more time together than ever before and I believe she is probably most supportive of him than anyone else. It is so fucking awesome.

She even takes him to his modeling shoots and lets him spend time at her home.


Out of interest, why do you refer to 'him' and 'he' all the time rather than 'her' and 'she'?

it should be that way because "he" is a "he". no matter how much he doesnt want to be.

his genes says he is a he, his dna says he is a he, his naturally produced hormones say he is a he, his genitalia says he is a he. 

taking hormones and getting surgeries to make your body look different, doesnt change your gender. its very stupid, that on legal documents you can have your sex changed. becasue in reality you cant, you can call yourself by a different name and sex, and look different, but you cant ever change your gender.

Actually, you can change your gender. What you mean is that you can't change your sex. Which is debatable.