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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Project Cafe/3DS and the abandoning of the consumer

Phoeniks.Wright on 28 April 2011

It's a sad state of affairs when the term "casual gamer" is still thrown around. *siiigh*

From what I've pieced together, I get what axt113 is saying, Nintendo's main duty is to sell consoles, so it must release a steady stream of console sellers. But apart from that, there's no problem with them also making more niche titles, since it adds to the console library. The problem he mentions is that Nintendo is choosing not to make more of these console sellers, so choosing to sell less consoles, which makes no sense for a business.

As for this casual gamer myth that they only buy a few games: well, if only a few games are made for you on a console, you're only going to buy those few games. I say this because when I read those comments, it's almost as if they were accusing people of having the "wrong" taste, which is absurd.



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Kenryoku_Maxis on 28 April 2011
Play4Fun said:
Immortal said:
Play4Fun said:
Immortal said:


Do you really think core gamers stick around? Something that I really hate the cores for is for their continued betrayal of Nintendo. SNES, N64, GC... they were all core consoles and they had continued declining sales. N64, in particular, did everything that fans wanted, but was subject to an enormous decline. Not saying that casual gamers won't betray Nintendo, but at least they haven't proven themselves to be traitors yet, unlike core gamers.

Because most core gamers aren't fanboys (not calling you one). I don't know anything about SNES but PS1 and PS2 were more attractive to core gamers than N64 and GC, especially with their lack of third party support.

Core gamers go where most of the games that interest them are.

A Nintendo console with third party support the equivalent of  what Sony and MS get would  be a very attractive console. I hope Nintendo pulls it off with Cafe.

You can call me a fanboy. I take pride in it, xD.

Anyway, how is that any different from casual gamers? They, too, seem to go where most of the games that interest them are. It's rather unfair to say that core gamers stick around whilst casuals do not.

Well, casual gamers can go to ipads, iphones and such for their casual gaming. Many of them will abandon consoles for those cheaper alternatives.

Except an iphone costs more than a 3DS and has less games.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

zarx on 29 April 2011

For an example of the casual vs core gamer devide check this 

 

"Games Purchase

Almost 40% of people playing games have not bought or been given a game for themselves in the last 12 months, they are playing the games others have bought 14% of gamers are buying more than 3 games a year together this group account for 56% of all games purchases

Numbers of purchases are highest in the UFIGS countries, purchases range from 2.7 games each in the UK to 1.4 games each in North Eastern Europe"

http://english.safe.si/uploadi/editor/1298982651ISFE_Consumer_Survey_2010.pdf

 

 

The core group are the 14% and the casual group are the rest which market do you think is a better market to have? 

Also axt113 you seem to have skiped my last 2 posts lol



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Kenryoku_Maxis on 29 April 2011
zarx said:

For an example of the casual vs core gamer devide check this 

 

"Games Purchase

Almost 40% of people playing games have not bought or been given a game for themselves in the last 12 months, they are playing the games others have bought 14% of gamers are buying more than 3 games a year together this group account for 56% of all games purchases

Numbers of purchases are highest in the UFIGS countries, purchases range from 2.7 games each in the UK to 1.4 games each in North Eastern Europe"

http://english.safe.si/uploadi/editor/1298982651ISFE_Consumer_Survey_2010.pdf

 

 

The core group are the 14% and the casual group are the rest which market do you think is a better market to have? 

Also axt113 you seem to have skiped my last 2 posts lol

Considering its 56% of the market, focusing on the 'core' alone will not make you sell the best.  Also, consider the fact that no game will ever appeal to 56% of the market.

And considering the next console, Nintendo will most likely try to appeal to both the 'core' and 'casual' gamers at the same time.  Just like the PS2 did.  Its taking a chance, but since they're coming out before the other next gen systems and have a huge established base with the Wii, they could pull it off.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

zarx on 29 April 2011
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
zarx said:

For an example of the casual vs core gamer devide check this 

 

"Games Purchase

Almost 40% of people playing games have not bought or been given a game for themselves in the last 12 months, they are playing the games others have bought 14% of gamers are buying more than 3 games a year together this group account for 56% of all games purchases

Numbers of purchases are highest in the UFIGS countries, purchases range from 2.7 games each in the UK to 1.4 games each in North Eastern Europe"

http://english.safe.si/uploadi/editor/1298982651ISFE_Consumer_Survey_2010.pdf

 

 

The core group are the 14% and the casual group are the rest which market do you think is a better market to have? 

Also axt113 you seem to have skiped my last 2 posts lol

Considering its 56% of the market, focusing on the 'core' alone will not make you sell the best.  Also, consider the fact that no game will ever appeal to 56% of the market.

And considering the next console, Nintendo will most likely try to appeal to both the 'core' and 'casual' gamers at the same time.  Just like the PS2 did.  Its taking a chance, but since they're coming out before the other next gen systems and have a huge established base with the Wii, they could pull it off.

Appealing to 56% of the market with one game is not the point 

Of course you want both markets but for a platform holder that gets a licensing fee for every game sold attracting the 14% of the potential audience to your console with games like Galaxy and other: M etc if you can pull it off is more valuable in the long run than getting a fraction of the other 76% of the market as they will buy less games in the future. Ideally you will have a good number of core gamers that will consistently buy software as well as a group of casual gamers that will buy one or two games but there are so many of them you can get successes like Mario kart, NSMB Wii, Wii sports, GTA VC etc and drive hardware from 1 or 2 games. The consoles that have struck the best balance are the NES, SNES, Playstation and the PS2, This generation the Wii got most of the casuals and very few core gamers and that led to great hardware sales and some titles with outstanding sales but an overall software ecosystem that is weak meaning outside of a few breakout titles games don't sell that well. The PS3 and 360 got most of the core and few casuals and so they have slower hardware sales and fewer truly breakout titles (COD being the only real exception) but a generally more healthy game sales market where a broad range of titles thrived. 

Nintendo knows this so next gen they are trying to get third parties and the core on board which means building hype and traditional control scheme bundled with the console, while I am sure still trying to keep the more casual market happy. If they can pull it off then they will have a PS2 on their hands a console that sells tones of hardware and a broad range of software as well as having a few breakout successes. Whether they can do that is the question, they tried and failed the mix with the N64, NGC and the Wii.

Of course now that is where the OPs argument brakes down as he thinks that scraping all titles that attract the core and focusing entirely on games aimed at the 76% of the market that bus only 34% of the games when everyone is now trying to attract those gamers (Kinect, Move, Apple etc etc) is better than trying to strike a balance. 



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Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

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Play4Fun on 29 April 2011
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
Play4Fun said:
Immortal said:
Play4Fun said:
Immortal said:


Do you really think core gamers stick around? Something that I really hate the cores for is for their continued betrayal of Nintendo. SNES, N64, GC... they were all core consoles and they had continued declining sales. N64, in particular, did everything that fans wanted, but was subject to an enormous decline. Not saying that casual gamers won't betray Nintendo, but at least they haven't proven themselves to be traitors yet, unlike core gamers.

Because most core gamers aren't fanboys (not calling you one). I don't know anything about SNES but PS1 and PS2 were more attractive to core gamers than N64 and GC, especially with their lack of third party support.

Core gamers go where most of the games that interest them are.

A Nintendo console with third party support the equivalent of  what Sony and MS get would  be a very attractive console. I hope Nintendo pulls it off with Cafe.

You can call me a fanboy. I take pride in it, xD.

Anyway, how is that any different from casual gamers? They, too, seem to go where most of the games that interest them are. It's rather unfair to say that core gamers stick around whilst casuals do not.

Well, casual gamers can go to ipads, iphones and such for their casual gaming. Many of them will abandon consoles for those cheaper alternatives.

Except an iphone costs more than a 3DS and has less games.

They don't buy it just to play games but they'll have the option to get their casual gaming fixes on it.

IF they're not that into gaming and have an iphone, why would they buy a 3DS?



bazmeistergen on 29 April 2011
axt113 said:
padib said:
axt113 said:
Mr Khan said:
axt113 said:
ZaP~ said:

@axt113

It's impressive how you continue with what you believe.

I won't even try to counter your points of view, the trees don't let you see the forest. But i disagree your way of thinking, hands down.


ou can disagree with me, but you can;t disagree with the fact that Wii has declined and 3DS has ben underwhelming to say the least and that Nintendo has done it to themselves

The second point is debatable in light of past performance (namely the predecessor to the device in question), but rather most of us are flabbergasted by this extremist philosophy that there is only 1 proper kind of game to make, and all else is just waste. We could make a discussion regarding how Nintendo might have better paced their software distribution across this generation, certainly, but while there are these fundamental disagreements (and this seemingly endless scorn being heaped upon them), the Malstromites cannot hold discourse with the non-Malstromites. I shall repeat my previous declaration of "Screw You Guys, I'm Going Home," and shunt from my field of vision all who zealously profess this virulent vitriol, for the sake of preserving my sanity and retaining any semblance of enjoyment as i peruse VGChartz


I didn;t say there is only one type of game to make, if you think that you misunderstand me, I am saying that many games should be made, but the should follow successful ideals, you can make meaty fare from the ideals in WSR and Wii Fit, you can make games that capture the old school feel of games, easier to pickup and play but lots of fun in a similar vein to NSMB, I'm not saying just make NSMB only, I'm saying don't waste  time on dead ends like 3D Mario and Other M and Skyward Sword, when better games can be made using the ideals of actual success

</endthread>

just kidding. Dude, I kind of see where you're coming from. Problem is, there are tons of flaws in the arguments you're bringing and it makes us all question

1) Your intent

and

2) Your insight.

All through the thread, I'm thinking "Thank God it's Iwata and not axt## leading Nintendo".

My friend, it's been said before

- The casual market is non-sustainable on its own

- To maintain the casual market, you need a solid userbase (the core).

Others have mentioned it, I'll simply restate:

- Rehashes of casual games won't sustain.

- Efforts following the casual game style, more in depth, have been made, and were unsuccessful (Red Steel, Metroid Prime 3, ...). Reason: The core is not large enough.

How do you attract the core? Change directions.

And that's exactly what Nintendo's doing. Now applaud.

and

</endthread>


I disagree, you cannot say the expanded market is unsustainible when Nintendo themselves choose not to support it, we can say the hardcore market is unsustainible due tothe failure of thsoe games on the Wii, the GCN, and the N64, not to mention the low low sales of the 3DS

And yet they've shipped more 3DS units than they shipped DS at a similar point in its life.

Nintendo have repeatedly supported the expanded market - from sports to fit to resort to fit plus to party to play motion to mario brothers wii...



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siavm on 29 April 2011
axt113 said:

The reasoning of the cafe and the 3DS can only be understood either one of two ways, either Nintendo is stupid enough to repeat its past mistakes, or the consoles were created with the understanding that they are abandoing the consumer.  There are no other explanations for why Nintendo after seeing massive success with the Wii and DS, would throw those strategies and ideals away for the 3DS and the Cafe and a strategy of decline.

Its not the first time that Nintendo has mde these mistakes, it was the SNES/N64/GCN era that ws Nintendo's first major decline, and it wasn't Sony o Sea or MS that caused it, bt Nendo and their own foolish decisions, even then, Nintendo continued to make the right decisions in the handheld market, and the strategy of the DS not only led to the highest selling system in history, it also helped to lead to the Wii and a resurgence of the company's home console market, th reson for its sucssesses in th handheld and hom console market was a decision to appeal to the old school and expanded audience, those who were put off by the overly complex and uninteresting fare found on the "modern consoles" found a home on the DS and Wii, the same people who rejected 3D Mario were eager to purchase 2D Mario, people who had no interest in violent gritty fare that required complext controls and hours of gameplay, were happy to buy Wii Sports and Nintendogs, brain age and Wii fit.  But even with the Wii, Nintendo seemed to leave the promise unfilled, they still tried to jam games like Galaxy and Other M to consumers, even though they were rejected over and over.

Cafe and 3DS seem to make clear that Nintendo isn't really interested in catering to the audience that it gained with the Wii and DS, and would prefer to fight in the red ocean while making the games that led to it being the third place console maker, and is even willing to sabotage its handheld market in order to do so.  

Saying things like this make you sound like you want to watch vhs again. Companies keep evolving. They cannot say on one thing for to many years. Wii and ds are more dated now, especially with the smartphone market growing. Nintendo needs better graphics and online. That is something it can not do with the wii or ds. Plus 6 and 7 years on the market is a long time. Seriously stop trolling or what ever you are doing here. I bet you don't complain when apple releases a iphone/ipad each year. 



Kenryoku_Maxis on 29 April 2011
Play4Fun said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
Play4Fun said:
Immortal said:
Play4Fun said:
Immortal said:


Do you really think core gamers stick around? Something that I really hate the cores for is for their continued betrayal of Nintendo. SNES, N64, GC... they were all core consoles and they had continued declining sales. N64, in particular, did everything that fans wanted, but was subject to an enormous decline. Not saying that casual gamers won't betray Nintendo, but at least they haven't proven themselves to be traitors yet, unlike core gamers.

Because most core gamers aren't fanboys (not calling you one). I don't know anything about SNES but PS1 and PS2 were more attractive to core gamers than N64 and GC, especially with their lack of third party support.

Core gamers go where most of the games that interest them are.

A Nintendo console with third party support the equivalent of  what Sony and MS get would  be a very attractive console. I hope Nintendo pulls it off with Cafe.

You can call me a fanboy. I take pride in it, xD.

Anyway, how is that any different from casual gamers? They, too, seem to go where most of the games that interest them are. It's rather unfair to say that core gamers stick around whilst casuals do not.

Well, casual gamers can go to ipads, iphones and such for their casual gaming. Many of them will abandon consoles for those cheaper alternatives.

Except an iphone costs more than a 3DS and has less games.

They don't buy it just to play games but they'll have the option to get their casual gaming fixes on it.

IF they're not that into gaming and have an iphone, why would they buy a 3DS?

The same argument could have been made against the PSP or DS.  Obviously there are millions of people who bought a DS for the games.  And especially in Japan, many people used their DS for alternative uses beyond just gaming.  Such as buying a TV Tuner add-on or checking the news online.  During the earthquake in Japan, I saw countless people siting in shelters who still had a DS and were using it to check the news, since local TV and Cell Phone coverage was down.

But aside from the Japanese, who obviously love the DS the most, most people will simply buy the 3DS for the games.  And its ignorant to say that the majority of 'casual' gamers are simply going to jump to the iphone for their game fix.  If they bought the iphone for other reasons than gaming (cell phone, app usage), then there's nothing to say they wouldn't buy a 3DS for games.  If that was the case, DS sales would have dropped in the last 3 years with the 'iphone dominance'.  Instead, with releases of DS Lite and DSi, they increased.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

Play4Fun on 29 April 2011
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
Play4Fun said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
Play4Fun said:
Immortal said:
Play4Fun said:
Immortal said:


Do you really think core gamers stick around? Something that I really hate the cores for is for their continued betrayal of Nintendo. SNES, N64, GC... they were all core consoles and they had continued declining sales. N64, in particular, did everything that fans wanted, but was subject to an enormous decline. Not saying that casual gamers won't betray Nintendo, but at least they haven't proven themselves to be traitors yet, unlike core gamers.

Because most core gamers aren't fanboys (not calling you one). I don't know anything about SNES but PS1 and PS2 were more attractive to core gamers than N64 and GC, especially with their lack of third party support.

Core gamers go where most of the games that interest them are.

A Nintendo console with third party support the equivalent of  what Sony and MS get would  be a very attractive console. I hope Nintendo pulls it off with Cafe.

You can call me a fanboy. I take pride in it, xD.

Anyway, how is that any different from casual gamers? They, too, seem to go where most of the games that interest them are. It's rather unfair to say that core gamers stick around whilst casuals do not.

Well, casual gamers can go to ipads, iphones and such for their casual gaming. Many of them will abandon consoles for those cheaper alternatives.

Except an iphone costs more than a 3DS and has less games.

They don't buy it just to play games but they'll have the option to get their casual gaming fixes on it.

IF they're not that into gaming and have an iphone, why would they buy a 3DS?

The same argument could have been made against the PSP or DS.  Obviously there are millions of people who bought a DS for the games.  And especially in Japan, many people used their DS for alternative uses beyond just gaming.  Such as buying a TV Tuner add-on or checking the news online.  During the earthquake in Japan, I saw countless people siting in shelters who still had a DS and were using it to check the news, since local TV and Cell Phone coverage was down.

But aside from the Japanese, who obviously love the DS the most, most people will simply buy the 3DS for the games.  And its ignorant to say that the majority of 'casual' gamers are simply going to jump to the iphone for their game fix.  If they bought the iphone for other reasons than gaming (cell phone, app usage), then there's nothing to say they wouldn't buy a 3DS for games.  If that was the case, DS sales would have dropped in the last 3 years with the 'iphone dominance'.  Instead, with releases of DS Lite and DSi, they increased.

What ignorance? I never said anything about the majority going anywhere, but many will. That's all there is to it.

  I'm not talking about Japan either, I'm talking about other territories.

iphones are  getting stronger  game-wise than they were back with the DS. Alot of gamers like to deny that iphones are any threat to handheld gaming but their cheap convenient gaming is attractive to many people who game casually.

I don't know how serious a threat they are, but they are a threat nonetheless.