Okay, agreed in this forum language isn't worth arguing about.

Again though just so I don't leave you confused, I'm not saying Atheist believe in a god of any kind. I only posted an argument what I think exposes how useless the theist god would be and then said that this is the usual atheist argument. The context was to explain that Atheists wont out right say there is no god, if one did then they would have a 50% chance of being correct... maybe 50.9999% chance. Perhaps one would say that they do not believe a god exists, but I can't think of one that will say they know a god or the gods don't exist.

If your going to say otherwise though, you need to e-mail Richard Dawkins and ask him to elaborate. =P

All hail pizza, for he knows exactly what god thinks and does, kneel to his knowledge.

ALL HAIL THE PROPHET PIZZAHUT451, he has knowledge no other human could know!

Pizza how do you know god would never show himself; it's a miracle!? Did God tell you that oh wise prophet?

----

Now if someone said martians would never let us know they existed because that would change the foundation of human life on Earth to you on a bus, would you move closer or further away from him?

(This is all tongue in cheek btw)

I think that he was talking about actually be phisically present like being in front of your eyes.
of course that the presence of Jesus is already a manifestation but not in the sense described above.

@DélioPT:

What evidence? Being born one way doesn`t classify as human nature. And if i`m not mistaken science hasn`t proven for sure. Also, a genetic "inclination" doesn`t mean that the religious concept of human nature is wrong.
As i said before, it doesn`t really matter what inclination per se, as it`s only wrong when practiced, just like every other sin. What`s wrong is the action.

Read scientific articles on the matter. All professionals agree that sexual orientation isn't a choice, regardless of the causes, and that for a homosexual homosexuality is natural and normal and healthy. I don't know what exactly you base your ideea of human nature o, but it certainly seems to have little to do with nature.

You didn`t prove a single thing. The only thing you showed was how you only see a "detail", if you will, don`t care what the context is and judhe the whole for the part. You ignore the difference that clearly exists between God and dictators just because you can`t see past the fact tha people should be held responsible for their choices. There isn`t freedom without consequences. Life has causes and consequences. It`s not just with our relation to God, in our own relations there is repercussions for the good and the bad and with God it`s no different.
More, you act like having no freedom and living in fear of a dictator, that gives you no real choice, that doesn`t love you or care about you, is the same as someone who loves you, died for you, lets you choose and gives everything to make you happy.

The consequences aren't a result of the actions themselves having a certain impact, but a result of the will of a person who decided that certain actions are wrong (because he says so), and that people sould suffer for doing them. Some actions are bad due to the results they cause, while many of the actions your god condemns don't have any actual negative consequences, but he condemns them anyway, because he feels like it. Also, this relationship you talk about is very one sided, with one side needing to submit to the whims of the other.

He also doesn't give you much of a chocie, as he makes sure that not chosing to submit to him leads you to perpetual unhappiness (including suffering for eternity in hell).

And I fail to see how Jesus's "sacrifice" proves any belevolence, when it is all a result of his own will, and nothing bad would've happend to him regardless.

You can handle pain and still find piece of mind and at heart, but if you haven`t piece of mind or at heart, then believe me, it will be a lot more devastating than any physical pain. The sense of void, for example, is more hurtful than any physical addiction.

Those addictions are usually a result of something, rather than a cause.

Read scientific articles on the matter. All professionals agree that sexual orientation isn't a choice, regardless of the causes, and that for a homosexual homosexuality is natural and normal and healthy. I don't know what exactly you base your ideea of human nature o, but it certainly seems to have little to do with nature
Human nature isn`t about physical nature or how your body works, it`s more than that. But as i said, it`s not a question of being this way or the other, it`s about the choices you make. Being tempted this way or that way isn`t what matters.

The consequences aren't a result of the actions themselves having a certain impact, but a result of the will of a person who decided that certain actions are wrong (because he says so), and that people sould suffer for doing them. Some actions are bad due to the results they cause, while many of the actions your god condemns don't have any actual negative consequences, but he condemns them anyway, because he feels like it. Also, this relationship you talk about is very one sided, with one side needing to submit to the whims of the other.
First of all, one´s action always has consequences. If those are good or bad or a different matter. It isn`t that subjective because what we do or think always has a good or bad result, it may diverge according to one belief, but they still go by good or wrong to yourself and to others if they are the target of said action.
I can`t understand how you feel that some actions don`t have consequences but that`s a point of view. I have another. You can`t look at others point of view without looking at the context of that point of view. "Because he feels like it..." is an example of that, but honestly i can understand why you say it. All that i will say is that, we didn`t creat life, we didn`t create ourselves and everything that`s part of us, so maybe there`s more to us than one can reach in our understanding. Believe in God gives me more understanding of myself and Himself.
The relationship between God and us is the complete opposite of one sided. The love is mutual, He is my friend and Father and He loves me. How do i know this? Faith is an answer, as is what`s written in the Bible and so many more resons to feel certain about this.

He also doesn't give you much of a chocie, as he makes sure that not chosing to submit to him leads you to perpetual unhappiness (including suffering for eternity in hell).
It`s a choice, you might not like the outcome but it`s still a choice, as honest choice that you base solely on your will. Freedom.


And I fail to see how Jesus's "sacrifice" proves any belevolence, when it is all a result of his own will, and nothing bad would've happend to him regardless.
No. Death without God is the cause of our actions, not God`s. The good or the bad is fruit of our actions, decisions, etc. His goodness comes from the death of Jesus. Because if that didn`t happen there would be no salvation for us. We would live in sin and we would die in sin. Every sin we commit is another step away from God. So to save us and let us leave forever in peace and love He sacrificed Himself to show that those we die with Him, ressurrect with Him.
More, and seeing that he made us free, He still let us choose our path.

Those addictions are usually a result of something, rather than a cause.
Addictions are the result of something, yes. But it`s not the end. Even if they are a result, they have consequences in out lifes and sometimes deeper consequences. It`s not just the body that suffers, it`s their hearts that hurt in consequence.

I'm pretty sure their have been cultrures and religions in the past where killing and stealing are seen as OK. The Mongols, Aztecs etc.

Even today, many cultures are struggling with Western morals. There was a story in Pakistan of a woman who was punished by an elder for something her brother did and was gang raped. That may not be a religious difference (I'm pretty sure Islam is against rape), but it is a cultural one.

@DélioPT:

Human nature isn`t about physical nature or how your body works, it`s more than that. But as i said, it`s not a question of being this way or the other, it`s about the choices you make. Being tempted this way or that way isn`t what matters.

You don't know what you're talking about. Just give it a rest.

First of all, one´s action always has consequences. If those are good or bad or a different matter. It isn`t that subjective because what we do or think always has a good or bad result, it may diverge according to one belief, but they still go by good or wrong to yourself and to others if they are the target of said action.
I can`t understand how you feel that some actions don`t have consequences but that`s a point of view. I have another. You can`t look at others point of view without looking at the context of that point of view. "Because he feels like it..." is an example of that, but honestly i can understand why you say it. All that i will say is that, we didn`t creat life, we didn`t create ourselves and everything that`s part of us, so maybe there`s more to us than one can reach in our understanding. Believe in God gives me more understanding of myself and Himself.

I'd say it's made you more ignorant than you would've been otherwise. Just look at your first paragraph.

The relationship between God and us is the complete opposite of one sided. The love is mutual, He is my friend and Father and He loves me. How do i know this? Faith is an answer, as is what`s written in the Bible and so many more resons to feel certain about this.

Faith is not an answer. It's quite the opposite, a clouding of judgment.

It`s a choice, you might not like the outcome but it`s still a choice, as honest choice that you base solely on your will. Freedom.

Wrong, the outcome is bases solely on the will of the deity. Amd Hitler also gave those who would oppose him a choice. Submit or die. It was an honest choice, freedom and all that.

No. Death without God is the cause of our actions, not God`s. The good or the bad is fruit of our actions, decisions, etc. His goodness comes from the death of Jesus. Because if that didn`t happen there would be no salvation for us. We would live in sin and we would die in sin. Every sin we commit is another step away from God. So to save us and let us leave forever in peace and love He sacrificed Himself to show that those we die with Him, ressurrect with Him.
More, and seeing that he made us free, He still let us choose our path.

A nonsensical paragraph. This will probably be the last time I reply to you.

Addictions are the result of something, yes. But it`s not the end. Even if they are a result, they have consequences in out lifes and sometimes deeper consequences. It`s not just the body that suffers, it`s their hearts that hurt in consequence.

The hearty is part of the body (it is an organ after all).

I'd say it's made you more ignorant than you would've been otherwise. Just look at your first paragraph.
I`d say that sounds like an insult, but who am i to say such a thing? I`m just ignorant.

A nonsensical paragraph. This will probably be the last time I reply to you.
If you don`t believe in God that must be truly nonsensical.

Faith is not an answer. It's quite the opposite, a clouding of judgment.
For someone who doesn`t know what faith is, you sure do know a lot of what means to have faith.

Wrong, the outcome is bases solely on the will of the deity. Amd Hitler also gave those who would oppose him a choice. Submit or die. It was an honest choice, freedom and all that.
You make it sound arbitrary. Saying Hitler gave people a choice is not just historically wrong as i`m pretty sure jews waren`t given any choices and having a choice doesn`t correspond to any dictatorship i have seen. Here in Portugal we had that for almost 50 years and it was do or be punished. When you do something against God`s will at least you are given the option to ammend or to continue.

The hearty is part of the body (it is an organ after all).
You do like to be literal about everything! :D
I said heart but in the context of "broken hearts" caused by love... that kind of heart. 

Answers in bolded

''Grey area'' doesnt disprove universal morals actually. ''grey area'' are most of the time taken out of context made up by humans to disprove universal morals such as ''burn and kill the innocent baby to save the world'' etc etc... They really annoy me sometimes.

If you want to get killed and /or tortured than you are not rational and/or mentally healthy person, you are most likely a sick or mentaly ill person and as such, not in position to make your own choices and guide your own life, let alone follow your own morals. And before you say ''but pain is considerd good by some people, pain is not universally a bad thing''  let me tell you that that answer can be flawed, because using that logic you can make anything look normal. It would be like saying ''its not un-normal  for another human being to have 10 heads and 8 legs, because he is born that way'' despite that being an extreme gentic disorder in the person's development. The same can be said about people who consider getting tortured and killed a good or normal thing.

As for unicorns, we could, by using some scientific, historic, logical or biological mesaures, determan if the creature that fits to the describtion of the unicorn existed or not in the past. The same cant be said for God, because no laws of science logic or biologiy apply to him. At least not the laws we know about. Thats why its impossible for each side to show the evidence of thier belief. Its all about faith. Also, if you go 2 or 3 pages back, you'll see I've never actually asked for evidence of non-existance of God. He said all ideologies without evidence should be ridiculed to which I replied with saying Athesim also provides no evidence for its ideology and should also be ridiculed.

Also, what is your view on God? Are you a theist or atheist?