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Forums - General - Lots of bashing for the belief of God....

The_vagabond7 said:

 

A culture of inquiry and reason, does not deem this sane in the free market of ideas anymore. It used to be it didn't matter how stupid what you said was, if you followed it with "and that's my religion" it automatically demanded respect. In the information age this is no longer the case. Ideas and beliefs are meant to be kicked around, abused, held under the microscope, and then tossed out or changed if found faulty. If you tell someone that their views on corporate regulation are absurd, then it's ok. If you tell someone that you disagree with their views of lateral gene transfer and it's effects on long term evolution, you go to the drawing board. If you tell somebody that you think that a jewish zombie saving us from a talking snake that made a woman eat an apple is dumb, then they will scream persecution and bigotry.Ideas are meant to be scrutinized, but certain ideas have had a priviledged status for so long that ones that hold them think they are beyond criticism.

 

It doesn't help that alot of religions have built in persecution complexes, so if somebody says "that's dumb" the recepient can immediately respond "my beliefs said you would say that, so I'm even more right! Ridicule me some more, my beliefs said you would do that too! I'm being martyred!!!!". Saying an idea or belief is dumb is not bigotry or persecution however. African Americans were hung and burned on crosses, weren't given legal rights and suffered numerous atrocities at the hands of bigots. Somebody saying "Let's debate the merits of bible's morality." or "Taking a literalist view of the bible is ignorant at best." is not persecution. But again and again this is seen as "militant" behavior, or gross "intolerance". If you think that is militant and intolerant, consider yourself lucky enough to live in a time where that can be said with a straight face.

Also, I take exception to the idea that people single out christians. This is confirmation bias at it's finest. Statistically there are far more christians on this site than muslims, of course there is going to be more discussion of the bible than the koran. I certainly don't think the koran is any more sane than the bible, but opprotunities to debate that point are few and far between. In fact looking at the topic "what religion are you" 47 checked christian, 13 checked muslim, 2 hindus, 2 buddhists, and 116 non-religious. Now just from a mathematical standpoint why do you think there are more topics about debating christianity than say...the Vedas?

Also saying "people are only willing to pick on a religion of love and peace" while claiming people only attack christians shows considerable bigotry and prejudice towards other religions. Just pointing that out.

I think everyone should just delete every single post they have made in this thread apart from the one quoted above.



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pizzahut451 said:
Porcupine_I said:
pizzahut451 said:
vlad321 said:
DélioPT said:

No, it`s because it contains the words from God and Jesus, along with his life. And that is defining to those who believe. That`s why we call it sacred and not just very important or very meaningful.


Ok and King Arthur contains the words of Arthur and Lancelot and Merlin, among a bunch of others. Why isn't that sacred?


Because its made up by man. And people believe New Testament are the words of son of God .A God or higher power is something people believed in ever since their brain was developed enough to think. It all comes own to fatih, after all (weather you believe God is made up by man or higher power really exists)

i was just thinking about that part the other day. that must have been the exact moment when they also realized that they would  inevitably die one day. and they would have to compensate for that knowledge with something that would come afterwards. and that is what religion is fundamentally all about. the possibility about a life after death. and you can only exclain that possibility with a higher power.

Religion (Christianity, at least) isn't only about afterlife. There is a lot more to it.

of course, nobody debates this. i was just looking at it from the perspective of the necessity of religion for the prehistoric cultures in general.

and you are right, it all comes down to faith. that means you don't know. you can't know. you are not even allowed to know.



“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’

I find it amusing that many people that "don't believe" in God get extremely angry when he's brought up. 



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Atheists bash Christians because they do not understand what a Christian is. Their idea of a Christian is the American warlike neo-conservative nationalist who focusses on the Jewish part of the bible, and almost not at all on the Christian part.

Christianity at its core is a very liberal religion, the new testament is full of statements of rebellion against elites and the irrational beliefs of the old testament. It is a book which praises openess and is against nationalism (It was against the idea of a chosen people). Lastly, it is full of pro-social messages, the opposite of the libertarian ideology of the neoconservatives of the US.

I think a lot of Christians (primarilly American) and atheists have a very incorrect view of Christianity and the early Christ cult movements that started it. Too many people do not understand the bible is from the Roman era, an era where fable was the key story telling element - and instead they see it as history. Another factor is that most of the bible was cut as heresy by the government and Bishops under Constantine I. In my opinion, the bible should be read from a secular standpoint, as a book of fables; not as a history. I don't believe Jesus was a real person, but a character; a personification of the idea of removing beliefs from one's mind, and becoming a more open and caring person.

I also do not believe that the old testament should be payed much attention to in Christianity - it is not that type of religion.  The old testament came from a Jewish nationalistic history - they are the chosen people by their religion; whereas Christianity is based on mystical and Hellenized philosophical Jewish thought.



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vlad321 said:
DélioPT said:
vlad321 said:
DélioPT said:

When people take offense it`s not because they are insecure, at least not always. It`s because when you  habe something you hold so dearly, it becomes a part of you and "insulting" - not saying it was what you said - does hurt the person or people related to it. It`s like saying something bad about you bothers, parentes, girlfriend ans one ends up getting offended aswell. It`s like that.
What you did was take something "sacred", something that has all the value and meaning to religious people and say that it`s like any other book. To religious people it`s like saying what they believe and hols sacred means nothing, you know?
As i said, even if people don`t believe, we should always try to understand that somethings, no matter what they are, are... well, sacred and in this case it does relate to a deep understanding.

I get it that a non believer sees the Bible like any given book, but even then, what that book is supposed to mean is a very different thing from a fairy tale or whatever try to significate. They serve different purposes and exist in different contexts.

That`s all that i was trying to say.

 

If you say something bad about my siblings, and it's true, I will actually go ahead and beat the shit out of my brother to knock some sense into him, depending on what was said. No reason to be offended by something that is true, as I said that is just a sign of someone who hasn't thought things through/

The different meaning of the bible that you mention is goven solely by people. People can easily give the same meaning to fairy tales. In fact, as of this point right now, I deem fairy tales as sacred of me and anyone who says they aren't true is a heretic. Now it stands on the same ground as the bible. Convince me of why my sacred stories are not sacred and true, but the bible's are. A bunch of them even taught me many things, especially Aesop.

Even if it`s true doesn`t mean it won`t hurt.
Actually, the meaning of the Bible comes from above. You "understand" it and then you embrace it´s meaning.
Who said anything about being true or not? I was talking only about why something sacred is to be respected, not if it´s true or not.
The Bible speaks about God and humanity and how they are entwined. Does it still stand in the same ground?

 

Yeah it does, because I am a rational being who understands that human can err and my brother is human. Therefore he can have fallacies, some of which I would literally break his rib to remove. It is just plain stupid on my part to take offense to something that is true.

I am also sorry, this is wehre we disagree. Just because I lay out untruths doesn't mean I am disrespecting something. It means that I am laying out facts about a belief that happen to not agree with said belief. I don't care whether the belief is sacred or not. No one should take offense to given facts that go against their beliefs. If they do they should just change them to something whose facts don't offend them.

"It is just plain stupid on my part to take offense to something that is true." So, if someone, even with a reason to do so, "hurts" someone you love, that is indifferent to you?

No one was sepaking about truth but you, it seems. All i was saying is that one thing is talking about something sacred, and another is if that sacred thing it`s true or not.



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vlad321 said:
DélioPT said:

Actually, this thread turned out to be, once again, a good example for the lack of tolerance and respect for other people`s views... once again.


I don't think you know what tolerence and respect is. Just because I tell someone that aspects of their belief are wrong for given reasons doesn't mean I disrespect them or don't tolerate them. It just means that the belief has holes in it. Only the person can decide whether he feels disrespected. At that point it's a personal problem for him, not me.

I do know about respect and tolerance is. One thing is critizing with arguments another thing is using mockery and subtle insults to go with those objective reasonings.
What i have seen in topics where religion debate is involved, is all but objectivity. That`s why i said there really said there`s a lack of respect and tolerance towards other point of views. I know a lot of people who don`t see the world like i do and our conversations or the conversations that i see don`t get as ugly as the ones i see around here.



amp316 said:

I find it amusing that many people that "don't believe" in God get extremely angry when he's brought up. 

This is a very simplistic assumption you have there. Maybe you should think a little harder on why that is.



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Jumpin said:

Atheists bash Christians because they do not understand what a Christian is. Their idea of a Christian is the American warlike neo-conservative nationalist who focusses on the Jewish part of the bible, and almost not at all on the Christian part.

Christianity at its core is a very liberal religion, the new testament is full of statements of rebellion against elites and the irrational beliefs of the old testament. It is a book which praises openess and is against nationalism (It was against the idea of a chosen people). Lastly, it is full of pro-social messages, the opposite of the libertarian ideology of the neoconservatives of the US.

I think a lot of Christians (primarilly American) and atheists have a very incorrect view of Christianity and the early Christ cult movements that started it. Too many people do not understand the bible is from the Roman era, an era where fable was the key story telling element - and instead they see it as history. Another factor is that most of the bible was cut as heresy by the government and Bishops under Constantine I. In my opinion, the bible should be read from a secular standpoint, as a book of fables; not as a history. I don't believe Jesus was a real person, but a character; a personification of the idea of removing beliefs from one's mind, and becoming a more open and caring person.

I also do not believe that the old testament should be payed much attention to in Christianity - it is not that type of religion.  The old testament came from a Jewish nationalistic history - they are the chosen people by their religion; whereas Christianity is based on mystical and Hellenized philosophical Jewish thought.

I'm pretty sure Jesus was a real person, though not the person Christians worship, who is a mythical being. And Christianity had 3 periods of development. The original version, the Christ cult movement as you call it, was the weakest and did not have much influence. Christianity gained a lot of influence when it started mixing with politics.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

DélioPT said:
vlad321 said:
DélioPT said:
vlad321 said:
DélioPT said:

When people take offense it`s not because they are insecure, at least not always. It`s because when you  habe something you hold so dearly, it becomes a part of you and "insulting" - not saying it was what you said - does hurt the person or people related to it. It`s like saying something bad about you bothers, parentes, girlfriend ans one ends up getting offended aswell. It`s like that.
What you did was take something "sacred", something that has all the value and meaning to religious people and say that it`s like any other book. To religious people it`s like saying what they believe and hols sacred means nothing, you know?
As i said, even if people don`t believe, we should always try to understand that somethings, no matter what they are, are... well, sacred and in this case it does relate to a deep understanding.

I get it that a non believer sees the Bible like any given book, but even then, what that book is supposed to mean is a very different thing from a fairy tale or whatever try to significate. They serve different purposes and exist in different contexts.

That`s all that i was trying to say.

 

If you say something bad about my siblings, and it's true, I will actually go ahead and beat the shit out of my brother to knock some sense into him, depending on what was said. No reason to be offended by something that is true, as I said that is just a sign of someone who hasn't thought things through/

The different meaning of the bible that you mention is goven solely by people. People can easily give the same meaning to fairy tales. In fact, as of this point right now, I deem fairy tales as sacred of me and anyone who says they aren't true is a heretic. Now it stands on the same ground as the bible. Convince me of why my sacred stories are not sacred and true, but the bible's are. A bunch of them even taught me many things, especially Aesop.

Even if it`s true doesn`t mean it won`t hurt.
Actually, the meaning of the Bible comes from above. You "understand" it and then you embrace it´s meaning.
Who said anything about being true or not? I was talking only about why something sacred is to be respected, not if it´s true or not.
The Bible speaks about God and humanity and how they are entwined. Does it still stand in the same ground?

 

Yeah it does, because I am a rational being who understands that human can err and my brother is human. Therefore he can have fallacies, some of which I would literally break his rib to remove. It is just plain stupid on my part to take offense to something that is true.

I am also sorry, this is wehre we disagree. Just because I lay out untruths doesn't mean I am disrespecting something. It means that I am laying out facts about a belief that happen to not agree with said belief. I don't care whether the belief is sacred or not. No one should take offense to given facts that go against their beliefs. If they do they should just change them to something whose facts don't offend them.

"It is just plain stupid on my part to take offense to something that is true." So, if someone, even with a reason to do so, "hurts" someone you love, that is indifferent to you?

No one was sepaking about truth but you, it seems. All i was saying is that one thing is talking about something sacred, and another is if that sacred thing it`s true or not.

Define hurt? Was it physically hurt, or hurt with words? Because I doubt someone I know will just be "hurt" by words. Just about everyone in my family knows themsevles really well so whether you call them an asshole, lazy, or any other truthful thing they won't give a damn.

Again, if the truth hurts, then it's a problem with YOU, not the person who said the truth. You are laying the blame on the wrong person.



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I was talking about hurt with words. "I doubt someone I know will just be "hurt" by words." Words do hurt. It depends on the person who says them and the context.
Picking up the idea above: "Again, if the truth hurts, then it's a problem with YOU, not the person who said the truth. You are laying the blame on the wrong person." Things aren`t that linear. And i can`t say whatever i want, they way that i want, because that may end up being disrespectful. Caring about what others feel no matter the subject is being respectful and tolerant.