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Forums - Sales Discussion - Malstrom: Why Project Cafe will fail

noname2200 said:
spdk1 said:

thats my entire point, he whines to whine, and hes always at odds with himself, he wants to make himself "at odds" with the flow.  so when everyone was crying foul about nintendo losing the hardcore audience he stepped in to talk about their new startegy, then when they started to put out some true "hardcore games" as per the blue ocean startegy, he bitched about them being too hardcore.  I'm a bit outspoken about my dislike for this guy, as I feel that he is a character made up to piss people off.

Obviously I can't definitively refute the idea that the entire persona is made to troll, but let's look at it this way. Over the past six years or so he's been right about issues more often than not. Over that same timespan he's usually been against the grain, as you point out. So either he's a prick who's got a better grasp on the situation than the majority of people, or he's a fake character who's decision to go at odds with the flow has fortuitously resulted in a six-year winning streak. Either way, it seems that he's worth listening to, no? More disturbingly, if you're right, doesn't that just mean that "the flow" is completely wrong?

LOL, I suppose so :P



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noname2200 said:
SaviorX said:

I cannot fathom how a company cannot learn from their mistakes. It is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

That's actually quite simple; most people don't learn a lesson unless they first pay a price for their mistake. Nintendo may repeat its errors, but as long as the competition makes the same ones, what need do they have to learn?


There is no guarantee to say that they will. I'm not a fan of Sony as a company, but I give them all the credit in the world for fighting tooth and nail to restore the PS3 back to some decency, and now it is leading in sales in the console market. The Xbox360 is older than the Wii but still manage to take a large chunk of its market with Kinect so simply.

After such royal screwups, it is hard to imagine Sony going down the same road, yet they might too. The NGP is getting too many PS3-lite games and has yet to show a killer app. Nintendo is STILL trying to force 3D with the the Super Mario 3DS coming up; unreasonably released before a 2D one which everyone wants.

He hit the nail on the head with the N64's complete lack on introductory games, same with the Gamecube. I cannot tell Nintendo how to run their company, I pretty much know nothing, but what I do know is you cannot force people to buy mediocre games they do not want. That includes a story heavy Metroid (outsold by an on-rails shooter :P),  a barebones Mario Paint (Wii Music), rehased and recycled content (Animal Crossing, worst Nintendo game of the entire generation), and unnecessary 'vision' sequels.

There was absolutely no need for a Super Mario Galaxy 2, but an NSMB2 would have been greatly appreciated. I grew up on Super Mario World. Last time I played it, I went on an 8 hour run and got the most genuinely enjoyable experience of gaming in ages. Wii Party and Wii Play 2 are half-hearted efforts to fill a need rather than create another. I credit Nintendo for fitness; that expanded their market by a huge margin, and Dancing has replaced music as the flavor of the month.

They can say all they want about making games for everyone, but even I feel left out by their 3DS efforts at the moment. The only game I am personally looking forward to is Star Fox 3DS. If I didn't play SF64 12 years ago, I would have nothing to look forward to. Star Fox was way more important than Metroid ever was. I'd much rather prefer a Custom Robo DS that captures multiplayer and slight customization over any Do-It-Yourself Wario game.

Nintendo paid the price for strict selfishness for 10 years (1996-2006). I hope they aren't hungry for a decade more.

Note: Why does Malstrom criticize 3D Zeldas when OOT was the best-selling one? Final Fantasy 7 had the benefit of an easy and quick introduction that nabbed it almost 10 million in sales, but that game was overall LONG and slightly difficult, so why did that sell? A large and unspoken part of Nintendo's failure after Super Nintendo was the complete lack of Squaresoft support.



Leatherhat on July 6th, 2012 3pm. Vita sales:"3 mil for COD 2 mil for AC. Maybe more. "  thehusbo on July 6th, 2012 5pm. Vita sales:"5 mil for COD 2.2 mil for AC."

RolStoppable said:
spdk1 said:

you've muisunderstood, I used to like Malstrom, but he is a broken record.

 

The contradictions are my entire point, he whines to whine, and hes always at odds with himself, he wants to make himself "at odds" with the common tendencies of his readeership.  so when everyone was crying foul about nintendo losing the hardcore audience he stepped in to talk about their new startegy, then when they started to put out some true "hardcore games" as per the blue ocean startegy, he bitched about them being too hardcore (as with Metroid). I'm a bit outspoken about my dislike for this guy, as I feel that he is a character made up to piss people off.

Now this is even better. You don't understand what is being talked about and that's why you draw wrong conclusions. MOM does neither fit in with blue ocean strategy or disruption, because it doesn't obey the same rules as what made the Wii successful.

The goal of a game like Metroid would be to move gamers upmarket, but that has to be done by following the values set by the Wii: remove the bloat, focus on solid gameplay fundamentals with easy to understand controls and build the game from there. MOM is the exact opposite of this, that's why it has been under constant criticism. It injected more bloat than ever (over 100 minutes of cutscenes) and said "screw it" to the gameplay fundamentals and a control scheme that would make sense. The result was something that Metroid fans like to pretend never happened and the sales speak for themselves.

whatever Rol, don't really feel like arguing something that I wasn't intending to argue in the first place.  you speak as if I'm some huge champion of this game.  This really is a non-issue as I am only bringing it up as the milestone where I thought his blog sucked.  



RolStoppable said:
spdk1 said:

EDIT: As for your reply to me: His blog would barely see any updates, if he only talked about business strategies as nothing much happens once a generation is a couple of years old. You shouldn't take his opinions on games too personal. 

fair enough



Kantor said:

When, exactly, did Malstrom switch to hating Nintendo? He had nothing but praise for the Blue Ocean and all the rest of it a few months ago, and now he's criticising them in hindsight for not  understanding their own console.

To be fair, it means he's sticking to his ideals and isn't a fanboy. He loved Nintendo for the Blue Ocean Strategy, not the Blue Ocean Strategy for Nintendo, and now he perceives them as having abandoned it, he has become a prophet of doom

Now i disagreed with some points of his even when he was still largely positive, but as things have turned those disagreements grew, and he's become a cancerous influence on the Nintendo fan community



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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So what happen when the Blue Ocean dried up?



noname2200 said:
spdk1 said:

thats my entire point, he whines to whine, and hes always at odds with himself, he wants to make himself "at odds" with the flow.  so when everyone was crying foul about nintendo losing the hardcore audience he stepped in to talk about their new startegy, then when they started to put out some true "hardcore games" as per the blue ocean startegy, he bitched about them being too hardcore.  I'm a bit outspoken about my dislike for this guy, as I feel that he is a character made up to piss people off.

Obviously I can't definitively refute the idea that the entire persona is made to troll, but let's look at it this way. Over the past six years or so he's been right about issues more often than not. Over that same timespan he's usually been against the grain, as you point out. So either he's a prick who's got a better grasp on the situation than the majority of people, or he's a fake character who's decision to go at odds with the flow has fortuitously resulted in a six-year winning streak. Either way, it seems that he's worth listening to, no? More disturbingly, if you're right, doesn't that just mean that "the flow" is completely wrong?


Personally, I'm much more inclined to believe he is a contrarian; and his success is a combination of luck, coincidence, and a little insight. Many people in many areas end up getting on a multi-year "winning streak" based on following certain ideals and then see a significant "losing streak" because they did not realize that their ideals were incorrect or simply a proxy for another more important concept.

In a general sense the most obvious example of this in recent history is the housing bubble, as people made a lot of money over many years only to lose it because they didn't realise how distorted the market became; but it can also be seen in the videogame industry as many individuals and companies bet on the success of the PS3 and PSP because they met all the ideals they associated with the success of the Playstation and PS2.

In the case of Malstrom i believe his values are a proxy for a more important consideration of creating a distinct product that is desireable. While Nintendo has achieved amazing success with 2D platformers that is primarily because few 2D platformers are made by anyone else anymore and people still desire the gameplay; and it would be equally as foolish for Nintendo to produce more 2D platformers in an evironment where all third party publishers are releasing 2D platformers as it would be for Nintendo to focus on "Mature" games in the current environment (where every third party publisher is focusing on them).



spdk1 said:

good lord why did I even click on that, I wish Malstrom would gtet a new hobby....

 

This basically sums up as :

"wah wah wah 8 bit was the best"

"wah wah wah Nintendo should only cater to the mass market"

"wah wah wah I'm a hipster and don't like when something caters to its intended audience"

 





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RolStoppable said:
spdk1 said:

you've muisunderstood, I used to like Malstrom, but he is a broken record.

 

The contradictions are my entire point, he whines to whine, and hes always at odds with himself, he wants to make himself "at odds" with the common tendencies of his readeership.  so when everyone was crying foul about nintendo losing the hardcore audience he stepped in to talk about their new startegy, then when they started to put out some true "hardcore games" as per the blue ocean startegy, he bitched about them being too hardcore (as with Metroid). I'm a bit outspoken about my dislike for this guy, as I feel that he is a character made up to piss people off.

Now this is even better. You don't understand what is being talked about and that's why you draw wrong conclusions. MOM does neither fit in with blue ocean strategy or disruption, because it doesn't obey the same rules as what made the Wii successful.

The goal of a game like Metroid would be to move gamers upmarket, but that has to be done by following the values set by the Wii: remove the bloat, focus on solid gameplay fundamentals with easy to understand controls and build the game from there. MOM is the exact opposite of this, that's why it has been under constant criticism. It injected more bloat than ever (over 100 minutes of cutscenes) and said "screw it" to the gameplay fundamentals and a control scheme that would make sense. The result was something that Metroid fans like to pretend never happened and the sales speak for themselves.

EDIT: As for your reply to me: His blog would barely see any updates, if he only talked about business strategies as nothing much happens once a generation is a couple of years old. You shouldn't take his opinions on games too personal. 

If we're going to have this argument again, so be it, but the only bloat in Other M's case were the cutscenes, as all they did ultimately was detract from the game in one way or another, but i maintain that the control scheme and the gameplay elements were set up with streamlining in mind, and i cannot see any reason why the opposite could be argued.

Other M's control scheme is exactly the right direction to go in if you want to put the gameplay values of 2D Metroid in a 3D space. That was one thing Other M did almost perfectly (i would debate the sensitivity of having to point at the screen, which could be alleviated by holding a button for when you intended to flip into first person mode)

And the whole point is that he let Other M hate monopolize is blog and monopolize his distaste for Nintendo. Metroid has always been a third-tier franchise as far as sales go, and he was wrong to argue that the game was so significant in the big picture, just as he's pointedly wrong that every game Nintendo releases has to be a system seller. So long as the games are profitable and system sellers exist, there is no crime in that, from a business perspective



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

SaviorX said:


There is no guarantee to say that they will. I'm not a fan of Sony as a company, but I give them all the credit in the world for fighting tooth and nail to restore the PS3 back to some decency, and now it is leading in sales in the console market. The Xbox360 is older than the Wii but still manage to take a large chunk of its market with Kinect so simply.

Note: Why does Malstrom criticize 3D Zeldas when OOT was the best-selling one? Final Fantasy 7 had the benefit of an easy and quick introduction that nabbed it almost 10 million in sales, but that game was overall LONG and slightly difficult, so why did that sell? A large and unspoken part of Nintendo's failure after Super Nintendo was the complete lack of Squaresoft support.

We differ in terms of the PS3, and how it got out of its tailspin (I don't give Sony much of the credit, myself), but you're right that there are no guarantees. As for your note, he's actually addressed that specific point a couple of times. If I wasn't at work I'd link you to it, but a quick search of his site will bring up the answer pretty quickly.