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Forums - PC - And you wonder why developers 'hate' PC gamers ...

ssj12 said:
Ail said:
ssj12 said:
Ail said:
Zkuq said:
Ail said:

Glad you're not in charge of DEA or DOD.

Because change piracy with a few other choice words that have been popular these last 10 years and that gives a bleak picture of your view of the future....

Anyway so your whole plan for developers is lets hope we can find a few suckers that will stay pay for the game ?

Great plan.......

Show me DRM that works. Really, the only ones suffering from DRM are the ones who actually buy the game..

World of Warcraft

simple easy,

make ppl connect online every time they play and do not include the whole game in what you ship...

And before you argue that it's different because it's an MMORPG, Blizzard actually considered seriously using the same model for Starcraft 2 ( make it so you coudn't play singleplayer without a battlenet connection). In the end they decided against it but we don't know yet what they will decide for Diablo 3...

It's not that hard really, only ship half of the game and host the other half...

Even if somehow pirates can find a way to duplicate your servers, it's not practical for them to host for free competiting servers from an economical point of view ( and shutting down competiting servers isn't that hard, Blizzard has done that numerous times..)

 

That's what the cloud is all about.

Business software are starting to embrace heavilly this, video games developers will be next. It has the advantage of removing some of the pesky hardware requirements most PC games have too...

No it doesn't. There are servers which allow users to play for free. Blizzard can't get revenue when people host their own private game servers and never pay Blizzard for their tiime playing. I know several people who still host these servers so their friends can play for free.


And how widespread is this compared to regular piracy ?

Not at all and each time one of those servers started to get more popular, Blizzard quashed them..

Not mentionning that it tooks months for the first of those servers to appear after the original release of Wow so it only happens on very popular games that stays up for a very long time.

If the choice is pay now to play KZ3 on release or wait 6 months and hope some guys reverse engineer the servers and start hosting their own in 6 months from now , most people will not wait that time ( heck 6 months from now KZ3 won't even be the game people want to play anymore...)

umm... the private WoW servers aren't supposed to be "popular." They typically are LAN based servers ie not on the internet. So there are thousands of them.

And no one hosts console servers... thats pointless since most "servers" are P2P or dedicated anyways. Only game which allows you to host your own servers on console is Warhawk, which did it very well.

PC is different. We are given the tools to host servers for most games or have the option to rent one cheaply, monthly. WoW and certain titles are out of the norm and typically get hacked to support private servers.

I don't think you understand the problem of hosting those servers at all.

 

It took forever for those private Wow servers to come up because pirates don't have access to the code running on Blizzard servers.

The same would be true if suddenly games like Diablo 3, KZ3 or AC decided to follow the same model.

You have to get a legit app and reverse engineer all communications it makes to the server and then build your own server code that mimic those, it's a tremendous amount of work.

Definitly not something that would be available at the release of the software.

And honestly I don't think most publishers care much if private servers mimicking theirs come up 6 months after the release of the product (especially in the case of non MMORPGS games with a limited lifetime...).

 

Technically for developers, building games that work this way is feasible right now, it's not really that hard. Ship the graphic engine, put the rest of the game on a server, not trivial but not that hard either and once you've done it for one game it's easy to learn from the experience and replicate it for later games...



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

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Ail said:
ssj12 said:
Ail said:
 


And how widespread is this compared to regular piracy ?

Not at all and each time one of those servers started to get more popular, Blizzard quashed them..

Not mentionning that it tooks months for the first of those servers to appear after the original release of Wow so it only happens on very popular games that stays up for a very long time.

If the choice is pay now to play KZ3 on release or wait 6 months and hope some guys reverse engineer the servers and start hosting their own in 6 months from now , most people will not wait that time ( heck 6 months from now KZ3 won't even be the game people want to play anymore...)

umm... the private WoW servers aren't supposed to be "popular." They typically are LAN based servers ie not on the internet. So there are thousands of them.

And no one hosts console servers... thats pointless since most "servers" are P2P or dedicated anyways. Only game which allows you to host your own servers on console is Warhawk, which did it very well.

PC is different. We are given the tools to host servers for most games or have the option to rent one cheaply, monthly. WoW and certain titles are out of the norm and typically get hacked to support private servers.

I don't think you understand the problem of hosting those servers at all.

 

It took forever for those private Wow servers to come up because pirates don't have access to the code running on Blizzard servers.

The same would be true if suddenly games like Diablo 3, KZ3 or AC decided to follow the same model.

You have to get a legit app and reverse engineer all communications it makes to the server and then build your own server code that mimic those, it's a tremendous amount of work.

Definitly not something that would be available at the release of the software.

And honestly I don't think most publishers care much if private servers mimicking theirs come up 6 months after the release of the product (especially in the case of non MMORPGS games with a limited lifetime...).

You asked for DRM that worked, I proved you wrong that WoW's DRM stopped I guess membership piracy? idk wtf you would call it. Who cares how long it took to make the private servers, it still happened, and Blizzard loses memberships because of it. That seems to be failed DRM of an MMORPG to me.

And yes, I'm pretty sure Activision does with the modded MW2 since it makes MW2 work differently then what they wanted ie stop gamers from caring about the PC version.



PC gaming is better than console gaming. Always.     We are Anonymous, We are Legion    Kick-ass interview   Great Flash Series Here    Anime Ratings     Make and Play Please
Amazing discussion about being wrong
Official VGChartz Folding@Home Team #109453
 

"Crysis 2 is released on March 22, but if you've got a little time and even less scruples, you can play it right now. With almost depressing inevitability, an entire developer build of the game has been leaked online, allowing PC gamers early, free access to Crytek's latest eye-shagger. Killzone 3 was also recently leaked."

 

I stopped reading there..... doesn't that very paragraph puts PS3 gamers on teh same level as PC gamers? no? article fails.



OoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO

Ail said:
ssj12 said:
Ail said:
Zkuq said:
Ail said:

Glad you're not in charge of DEA or DOD.

Because change piracy with a few other choice words that have been popular these last 10 years and that gives a bleak picture of your view of the future....

Anyway so your whole plan for developers is lets hope we can find a few suckers that will stay pay for the game ?

Great plan.......

Show me DRM that works. Really, the only ones suffering from DRM are the ones who actually buy the game..

World of Warcraft

simple easy,

make ppl connect online every time they play and do not include the whole game in what you ship...

And before you argue that it's different because it's an MMORPG, Blizzard actually considered seriously using the same model for Starcraft 2 ( make it so you coudn't play singleplayer without a battlenet connection). In the end they decided against it but we don't know yet what they will decide for Diablo 3...

It's not that hard really, only ship half of the game and host the other half...

Even if somehow pirates can find a way to duplicate your servers, it's not practical for them to host for free competiting servers from an economical point of view ( and shutting down competiting servers isn't that hard, Blizzard has done that numerous times..)

 

That's what the cloud is all about.

Business software are starting to embrace heavilly this, video games developers will be next. It has the advantage of removing some of the pesky hardware requirements most PC games have too...

No it doesn't. There are servers which allow users to play for free. Blizzard can't get revenue when people host their own private game servers and never pay Blizzard for their tiime playing. I know several people who still host these servers so their friends can play for free.


And how widespread is this compared to regular piracy ?

Not at all and each time one of those servers started to get more popular, Blizzard quashed them..

Not mentionning that it tooks months for the first of those servers to appear after the original release of Wow so it only happens on very popular games that stays up for a very long time.

If the choice is pay now to play KZ3 on release or wait 6 months and hope some guys reverse engineer the servers and start hosting their own in 6 months from now , most people will not wait that time ( heck 6 months from now KZ3 won't even be the game people want to play anymore...)

What? There are hundreds of thousands of people who play WoW on pirvate servers. But that's even besides the point. The point is that it is circumventable, and if the game isn't an MMO, why wouldn't people circumvent it? What's the incentive there? If I'm playing Dragon Age, a singleplayer game, and I'm required to always be online, what incentive is there to not get the readily available pirated version which doesn't require a connection?



naznatips said:
Ail said:
ssj12 said:
Ail said:
Zkuq said:
Ail said:

Glad you're not in charge of DEA or DOD.

Because change piracy with a few other choice words that have been popular these last 10 years and that gives a bleak picture of your view of the future....

Anyway so your whole plan for developers is lets hope we can find a few suckers that will stay pay for the game ?

Great plan.......

Show me DRM that works. Really, the only ones suffering from DRM are the ones who actually buy the game..

World of Warcraft

simple easy,

make ppl connect online every time they play and do not include the whole game in what you ship...

And before you argue that it's different because it's an MMORPG, Blizzard actually considered seriously using the same model for Starcraft 2 ( make it so you coudn't play singleplayer without a battlenet connection). In the end they decided against it but we don't know yet what they will decide for Diablo 3...

It's not that hard really, only ship half of the game and host the other half...

Even if somehow pirates can find a way to duplicate your servers, it's not practical for them to host for free competiting servers from an economical point of view ( and shutting down competiting servers isn't that hard, Blizzard has done that numerous times..)

 

That's what the cloud is all about.

Business software are starting to embrace heavilly this, video games developers will be next. It has the advantage of removing some of the pesky hardware requirements most PC games have too...

No it doesn't. There are servers which allow users to play for free. Blizzard can't get revenue when people host their own private game servers and never pay Blizzard for their tiime playing. I know several people who still host these servers so their friends can play for free.


And how widespread is this compared to regular piracy ?

Not at all and each time one of those servers started to get more popular, Blizzard quashed them..

Not mentionning that it tooks months for the first of those servers to appear after the original release of Wow so it only happens on very popular games that stays up for a very long time.

If the choice is pay now to play KZ3 on release or wait 6 months and hope some guys reverse engineer the servers and start hosting their own in 6 months from now , most people will not wait that time ( heck 6 months from now KZ3 won't even be the game people want to play anymore...)

What? There are hundreds of thousands of people who play WoW on pirvate servers. But that's even besides the point. The point is that it is circumventable, and if the game isn't an MMO, why wouldn't people circumvent it? What's the incentive there? If I'm playing Dragon Age, a singleplayer game, and I'm required to always be online, what incentive is there to not get the readily available pirated version which doesn't require a connection?

Come to think of it, when I want to play Dragon Age on the PC, I can't access any saves until the game logs into my EA account because their DRM requires that I be logged in to access any of the extra content.

That's so annoying especially when it doesn't log in right away. I've had to wait a while a few times just to be able to access my saves.



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naznatips said:
Ail said:
ssj12 said:
Ail said:
Zkuq said:
Ail said:

Glad you're not in charge of DEA or DOD.

Because change piracy with a few other choice words that have been popular these last 10 years and that gives a bleak picture of your view of the future....

Anyway so your whole plan for developers is lets hope we can find a few suckers that will stay pay for the game ?

Great plan.......

Show me DRM that works. Really, the only ones suffering from DRM are the ones who actually buy the game..

World of Warcraft

simple easy,

make ppl connect online every time they play and do not include the whole game in what you ship...

And before you argue that it's different because it's an MMORPG, Blizzard actually considered seriously using the same model for Starcraft 2 ( make it so you coudn't play singleplayer without a battlenet connection). In the end they decided against it but we don't know yet what they will decide for Diablo 3...

It's not that hard really, only ship half of the game and host the other half...

Even if somehow pirates can find a way to duplicate your servers, it's not practical for them to host for free competiting servers from an economical point of view ( and shutting down competiting servers isn't that hard, Blizzard has done that numerous times..)

 

That's what the cloud is all about.

Business software are starting to embrace heavilly this, video games developers will be next. It has the advantage of removing some of the pesky hardware requirements most PC games have too...

No it doesn't. There are servers which allow users to play for free. Blizzard can't get revenue when people host their own private game servers and never pay Blizzard for their tiime playing. I know several people who still host these servers so their friends can play for free.


And how widespread is this compared to regular piracy ?

Not at all and each time one of those servers started to get more popular, Blizzard quashed them..

Not mentionning that it tooks months for the first of those servers to appear after the original release of Wow so it only happens on very popular games that stays up for a very long time.

If the choice is pay now to play KZ3 on release or wait 6 months and hope some guys reverse engineer the servers and start hosting their own in 6 months from now , most people will not wait that time ( heck 6 months from now KZ3 won't even be the game people want to play anymore...)

What? There are hundreds of thousands of people who play WoW on pirvate servers. But that's even besides the point. The point is that it is circumventable, and if the game isn't an MMO, why wouldn't people circumvent it? What's the incentive there? If I'm playing Dragon Age, a singleplayer game, and I'm required to always be online, what incentive is there to not get the readily available pirated version which doesn't require a connection?

You guys are thick...


Because if Dragon Age is designed so that half of the game engine is on EA's server that pirated version isn't going to be available the day Dragon Age releases.

Cracking the Game won't do shit if half of the game isn't on the disk but is client/server..

 

Do you guys talking of piracy and DRM all the time even know what it entails to crack a game ?

Cracking DRM isn't technically that hard. Find the places in the software where the licencing calls are made and stub them out...

Cracking a client/server app is a lot more complex.

You have to analyze the data flow between the client and the server and then develop software that will behave the same way the real server would. It is not fast nor easy to do...

Cracking Wow took several man years...

Which publisher is going to care that Dragon Age has been cracked  by the time Dragon Age 3 comes out...



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

Ail said:
naznatips said:

What? There are hundreds of thousands of people who play WoW on pirvate servers. But that's even besides the point. The point is that it is circumventable, and if the game isn't an MMO, why wouldn't people circumvent it? What's the incentive there? If I'm playing Dragon Age, a singleplayer game, and I'm required to always be online, what incentive is there to not get the readily available pirated version which doesn't require a connection?

You guys are thick...


Because if Dragon Age is designed so that half of the game engine is on EA's server that pirated version isn't going to be available the day Dragon Age releases.

Cracking the Game won't do shit if half of the game isn't on the disk but is client/server..

 

Do you guys talking of piracy and DRM all the time even know what it entails to crack a game ?

Cracking DRM isn't technically that hard. Find the places in the software where the licencing calls are made and stub them out...

Cracking a client/server app is a lot more complex.

You have to analyze the data flow between the client and the server and then develop software that will behave the same way the real server would. It is not fast nor easy to do...

Cracking Wow took several man years...

Which publisher is going to care that Dragon Age has been cracked  by the time Dragon Age 3 comes out...


Wait wait stop. Your solution to piracy, a problem which has yet to be proven to signifficantly affect actual profits/income on a game, is to force publishers to host costly servers with massive amounts of data on them for every single person to play every single singleplayer game? Wow...



naznatips said:
Ail said:
naznatips said:

What? There are hundreds of thousands of people who play WoW on pirvate servers. But that's even besides the point. The point is that it is circumventable, and if the game isn't an MMO, why wouldn't people circumvent it? What's the incentive there? If I'm playing Dragon Age, a singleplayer game, and I'm required to always be online, what incentive is there to not get the readily available pirated version which doesn't require a connection?

You guys are thick...


Because if Dragon Age is designed so that half of the game engine is on EA's server that pirated version isn't going to be available the day Dragon Age releases.

Cracking the Game won't do shit if half of the game isn't on the disk but is client/server..

 

Do you guys talking of piracy and DRM all the time even know what it entails to crack a game ?

Cracking DRM isn't technically that hard. Find the places in the software where the licencing calls are made and stub them out...

Cracking a client/server app is a lot more complex.

You have to analyze the data flow between the client and the server and then develop software that will behave the same way the real server would. It is not fast nor easy to do...

Cracking Wow took several man years...

Which publisher is going to care that Dragon Age has been cracked  by the time Dragon Age 3 comes out...


Wait wait stop. Your solution to piracy, a problem which has yet to be proven to signifficantly affect actual profits/income on a game, is to force publishers to host costly servers with massive amounts of data on them for every single person to play every single singleplayer game? Wow...

Business are starting to do it everywhere. Moving from full client to client-server app.

Gaming companies will too in time.

It offers them a lot more control and allow more possibilities for pricing for example( or demos, once you have a sure switch that can cut users off the game, it's a lot easier to offer free limited in time demos).Or even for advertising, once you know who your customers are for Dragon Age it is a lot easier to get them interested in Dragon Age 2 or any DLC... Or bug fixing....

Besides the idea that running a server is a costly thing for business is false.

With the advent of VMware it's relatively cheap and load balancing has become a lot easier.

As for the cost of the massive data, it's really not that much , heck Gmail gives 10Gb for free to every user ( 7.5Gb for Gmail and 2G for Gdocs).

The costs for bandwidth have gone down tremendously too (as I was saying in an earlier post Netflix bandwidth costs are 3 cents/Gig)

Sure for the first game there would be a cost but once you have several games the costs go down a lot and as the number of users for one game go down, they get replaced by users for a newer more recent game...

What exactly do you think Onlive are trying to do with their new service ( except they host the whole game instead of  having client/server).

This is what the cloud is about.  And it will be coming to every day users within 10 years....

Same thing for consoles within 2 gen, all purchases will be digital and you will only have a small client on your drive...

10 years ago this would have seemed like scifi but the advent of VMware and it's competitors has really changed everything...



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

Ail said:
naznatips said:
Ail said:
naznatips said:

What? There are hundreds of thousands of people who play WoW on pirvate servers. But that's even besides the point. The point is that it is circumventable, and if the game isn't an MMO, why wouldn't people circumvent it? What's the incentive there? If I'm playing Dragon Age, a singleplayer game, and I'm required to always be online, what incentive is there to not get the readily available pirated version which doesn't require a connection?

You guys are thick...


Because if Dragon Age is designed so that half of the game engine is on EA's server that pirated version isn't going to be available the day Dragon Age releases.

Cracking the Game won't do shit if half of the game isn't on the disk but is client/server..

 

Do you guys talking of piracy and DRM all the time even know what it entails to crack a game ?

Cracking DRM isn't technically that hard. Find the places in the software where the licencing calls are made and stub them out...

Cracking a client/server app is a lot more complex.

You have to analyze the data flow between the client and the server and then develop software that will behave the same way the real server would. It is not fast nor easy to do...

Cracking Wow took several man years...

Which publisher is going to care that Dragon Age has been cracked  by the time Dragon Age 3 comes out...


Wait wait stop. Your solution to piracy, a problem which has yet to be proven to signifficantly affect actual profits/income on a game, is to force publishers to host costly servers with massive amounts of data on them for every single person to play every single singleplayer game? Wow...

Business are starting to do it everywhere. Moving from full client to client-server app.

Gaming companies will too in time.

It offers them a lot more control and allow more possibilities for pricing for example( or demos, once you have a sure switch that can cut users off the game, it's a lot easier to offer free limited in time demos).Or even for advertising, once you know who your customers are for Dragon Age it is a lot easier to get them interested in Dragon Age 2 or any DLC... Or bug fixing....

Besides the idea that running a server is a costly thing for business is false.

With the advent of VMware it's relatively cheap and load balancing has become a lot easier.

As for the cost of the massive data, it's really not that much , heck Gmail gives 10Gb for free to every user ( 7.5Gb for Gmail and 2G for Gdocs).

The costs for bandwidth have gone down tremendously too (as I was saying in an earlier post Netflix bandwidth costs are 3 cents/Gig)

Sure for the first game there would be a cost but once you have several games the costs go down a lot and as the number of users for one game go down, they get replaced by users for a newer more recent game...

What exactly do you think Onlive are trying to do with their new service ( except they host the whole game instead of  having client/server).

This is what the cloud is about.  And it will be coming to every day users within 10 years....

Same thing for consoles within 2 gen, all purchases will be digital and you will only have a small client on your drive...

10 years ago this would have seemed like scifi but the advent of VMware and it's competitors has really changed everything...

You have noticed that onlive is a complete failure right? Cloud functionality is more useful for saved games and networked apps and thats about it.



PC gaming is better than console gaming. Always.     We are Anonymous, We are Legion    Kick-ass interview   Great Flash Series Here    Anime Ratings     Make and Play Please
Amazing discussion about being wrong
Official VGChartz Folding@Home Team #109453
 

So you say the only source of revenue for video games is the sale of the game itself.

 

I would like to introduce you to some friends of mine. Their names, in order of how wrong they show you to be are;

Farmville (advertising)

World of Warcraft (subscriptions)

Almost any PC, PS3 or 360 game in existance (map packs etc)

Second Life (microtransactions)