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Forums - Sales Discussion - Official: 360 vs PS3 gap now 2.88m

landguy1 on 06 February 2011
ethomaz said:
landguy1 said:
4k1x3r said:
landguy1 said:

The shipped number gap is irrelevent.  Sony and Microsoft are not really interested in the shipped number, only the public.  Sony and Microsoft, care about sell through.  That is the only time that they will not see there product back

Wait what... -_- It's really becoming ridiculous, now people are even inventing new things just to make their argument valid.


Worrying about shipped #'s is a short term issue.  Do think that they are worried how many are out of their warehouse?  Yeah, if you thought that you were never going to sell them again.  Sell through is more important because that determines whether they actually need to ramp up production or create better incentives for their resellers or the consumers.  Like i said in my first post, having the units ship from their warehouse is a minimum expectation, not a big accomplishment.

Sell through is more important for retailers/reselers... but for Microsoft/Sony/Nintente the sell in (shipped) is more important and the number showed to investidors and shareholders.

Same thing as a response.  The investors that they are trying to impress are not the one's that read their generic press releases.  They are courting institutional investors, these investors control Hundreds of millions to billions.  That kind of investor does not jump in and out of a stock.  They look long term which would apply to sell through not shipped.  



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Booh! on 06 February 2011
landguy1 said:
ethomaz said:
landguy1 said:
4k1x3r said:
landguy1 said:

The shipped number gap is irrelevent.  Sony and Microsoft are not really interested in the shipped number, only the public.  Sony and Microsoft, care about sell through.  That is the only time that they will not see there product back

Wait what... -_- It's really becoming ridiculous, now people are even inventing new things just to make their argument valid.


Worrying about shipped #'s is a short term issue.  Do think that they are worried how many are out of their warehouse?  Yeah, if you thought that you were never going to sell them again.  Sell through is more important because that determines whether they actually need to ramp up production or create better incentives for their resellers or the consumers.  Like i said in my first post, having the units ship from their warehouse is a minimum expectation, not a big accomplishment.

Sell through is more important for retailers/reselers... but for Microsoft/Sony/Nintente the sell in (shipped) is more important and the number showed to investidors and shareholders.

Same thing as a response.  The investors that they are trying to impress are not the one's that read their generic press releases.  They are courting institutional investors, these investors control Hundreds of millions to billions.  That kind of investor does not jump in and out of a stock.  They look long term which would apply to sell through not shipped.  


Well, Sony numbers are sold units, not just shipped. Sold to retailers, that's it. Units that retailers paid to Sony: real money. It's a different case from (for example) Nintendo which in many countries sells to shipping companies, and then those shipping companies sell to retailers. Obviously investors like to know how long term sales fare, but that's why Sony (and many other companies) gives sales figures (that is planned sales to retailers). Sony plans to ship 2.8 millions units this quarter, that's alot, but investors think it's possible.



phinch1 on 06 February 2011
kowenicki said:
phinch1 said:
kowenicki said:
psrock said:
kowenicki said:
psrock said:
kowenicki said:
LivingMetal said:
kowenicki said:
LivingMetal said:
MonstaMack said:

Not according to vgchartz it isn't.


I wouldn't worry about.  With the ways adjustments have been around here and as well as the PS3 has been selling, vgchartz will have the gap at 3 million before we know it.


there will always be far more PS3's in the channel than 360's... always


And those PS3's will be forever stuck there in a time loop until the Doctor comes to save the day... always.

why the smart reply...? I am merely stating an obvious fact.

the 360 doesn't sell in Japan (so minimal stock is held) and isnt available in  many other markets that the PS3 is.

I agree, The PS3 is a world console, it's more popular than the 360 in everywhere except a few big countries, I would assume sony is smart enough to have enough supply this time around unlike last year.

meaning its more popular in lots of small countries/ emerging markets... I agree.

small countries like France, Spain, Japan, Brazil, India, the little ones


yep... small markets.

there are only 3 big markets.  2 are 360.

japan and europe are PS3, 360 only dominates in the American market 

There are only 3 big markets... we were talking about countries  (EMEAA is a LOT of countries spread over a vast geographical area in very different parts of the world...  EMEAA is not one market, not even close)

US,UK and Japan


well maybe you should tell ioi to get rid of EMMEA off the front of the site and just post US, UK and japan, oh wait because theres a big wide world out there with lots of little countriies which all round puts the ps3 on top in EMMEA nice spin to make out 360 dominates in more though I belive world wide (which is the biggest market of all) PS3 dominates more areas than the 360



thismeintiel on 06 February 2011

Good grief, how long is this thread/argument going to last?  How many times are we going to hear about channel stuffing?  Doesn't it wear any of you out having to make that excuse, as well as find justification for it, each quarter?  The cold hard fact that none of you want to face is, SONY CANNOT STUFF THE CHANNEL 4 QUARTERS IN A ROW.  Yet, some of you still make the argument.  This is because of the other fact that Sony does not control how many PS3's stores have.  Retailers are in charge of their own stock, which includes how much they order.  Even if it's around the holidays and Sony is offering some special deal, retailers are still in charge of what they order.  If if they have millions of PS3's in their warehouse's collecting dust, as some of you seem to think, they will not order more.  And the only time they will return a product is if they and the seller make a special deal where if x amount of product is not sold, the seller will buy it back.  First of all, that's not going to happen to any console this gen, as they are all still selling pretty well and warrant new shipments.  And second, a retailer never wants to go through the trouble of shipping them back (and I would imagine the seller would require the retailerr to cover the cost of shipping.)  They would rather push the console out the door, which leads to the sales of games and accessories for that console, as that's where they make most of their profit.

You know, at first I was hoping that Sony would outship MS by a 1 or 2 by the end of this year or sometime in 2012, just so there would be no need to have threads like this anymore.  Unfortunately, I'm starting to see that even if PS3 outships the 360 by 5 mil, there will still be this argument.  And it will probably just start up again once the 720 and PS4 is released.  Oh well, I suppose.  That's just how the world turns.



 

Michael-5 on 06 February 2011
psrock said:
Michael-5 said:
ethomaz said:

I love to see people here saying the "shipped numbers says nothing"... because the VGC adjustments was made based in these shipped numbers after all.

Just check the numbers... without "shipped numbers" VGC was 360 over 52m now and PS3 below 46m.

Yea, but 360 is also experiencing shortages. Shipped numbers are innaccurate when MS is selling off almost all of their 360's and struggling to meet demand, when Sony is stocking up for the 2011 year, and not selling as high of a ratio of consoles (sold/Shipped Ratio)


MS had shortages in December in the US only. Stocking up for 2011? lol that's a new one. where are they putting these stocks? 


MS said shortages will be present on 360's until earliest February.

Stocking up for 2011, generally thats what companies do after the holidays. They sell most their stock in the holidays and rebuild it. MS is having trouble doing that as their January/February stock was mostly sold in December.

Hence, shipped numbers are misleading.



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FinalEvangelion on 07 February 2011
thismeintiel said:

Good grief, how long is this thread/argument going to last?  How many times are we going to hear about channel stuffing?  Doesn't it wear any of you out having to make that excuse, as well as find justification for it, each quarter?  The cold hard face that none of you want to face is, SONY CANNOT STUFF THE CHANNEL 4 QUARTERS IN A ROW.  Yet, some of you still make the argument.  This is because of the other fact that Sony does not control how many PS3's stores have.  Retailers are in charge of their own stock, which includes how much they order.  Even if it's around the holidays and Sony is offering some special deal, retailers are still in charge of what they order.  If if they have millions of PS3's in their warehouse's collecting dust, as some of you seem to think, they will not order more.  And the only time they will return a product is if they and the seller make a special deal where if x amount of product is not sold, the seller will buy it back.  First of all, that's not going to happen to any console this gen, as they are all still selling pretty well and warrant new shipments.  And second, a retailer never wants to go through the trouble of shipping them back (and I would imagine the seller would require the retailerr to cover the cost of shipping.)  They would rather push the console out the door, which leads to the sales of games and accessories for that console, as that's where they make most of their profit.

You know, at first I was hoping that Sony would outship MS by a 1 or 2 by the end of this year or sometime in 2012, just so there would be no need to have threads like this anymore.  Unfortunately, I'm starting to see that even if PS3 outships the 360 by 5 mil, there will still be this argument.  And it will probably just start up again once the 720 and PS4 is released.  Oh well, I suppose.  That's just how the world turns.

Totally agree.

 

I demand a logical explanation from some folks on how Sony can overship / stuff the channels for 5 quarters in a row (since the slim).  My guess is I won't be getting any responses.



"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."  --Hermann Goering, leading Nazi party member, at the Nuremberg War Crime Trials 

 

Conservatives:  Pushing for a small enough government to be a guest in your living room, or even better - your uterus.

 

Michael-5 on 07 February 2011
FinalEvangelion said:
thismeintiel said:

Good grief, how long is this thread/argument going to last?  How many times are we going to hear about channel stuffing?  Doesn't it wear any of you out having to make that excuse, as well as find justification for it, each quarter?  The cold hard face that none of you want to face is, SONY CANNOT STUFF THE CHANNEL 4 QUARTERS IN A ROW.  Yet, some of you still make the argument.  This is because of the other fact that Sony does not control how many PS3's stores have.  Retailers are in charge of their own stock, which includes how much they order.  Even if it's around the holidays and Sony is offering some special deal, retailers are still in charge of what they order.  If if they have millions of PS3's in their warehouse's collecting dust, as some of you seem to think, they will not order more.  And the only time they will return a product is if they and the seller make a special deal where if x amount of product is not sold, the seller will buy it back.  First of all, that's not going to happen to any console this gen, as they are all still selling pretty well and warrant new shipments.  And second, a retailer never wants to go through the trouble of shipping them back (and I would imagine the seller would require the retailerr to cover the cost of shipping.)  They would rather push the console out the door, which leads to the sales of games and accessories for that console, as that's where they make most of their profit.

You know, at first I was hoping that Sony would outship MS by a 1 or 2 by the end of this year or sometime in 2012, just so there would be no need to have threads like this anymore.  Unfortunately, I'm starting to see that even if PS3 outships the 360 by 5 mil, there will still be this argument.  And it will probably just start up again once the 720 and PS4 is released.  Oh well, I suppose.  That's just how the world turns.

Totally agree.

 

I demand a logical explanation from some folks on how Sony can overship / stuff the channels for 5 quarters in a row (since the slim).  My guess is I won't be getting any responses.

Don't think Sony is over-shipping, but MS needs to ship more. I think shipped figures can be misleading because the 360 sold a lot better then MS expected last fall, and shipped 360's aren't much more then units sold.



What is with all the hate? Don't read GamrReview Articles. Contact me to ADD games to the Database
Vote for the March Most Wanted / February Results

thismeintiel on 07 February 2011
Michael-5 said:
FinalEvangelion said:
thismeintiel said:

Good grief, how long is this thread/argument going to last?  How many times are we going to hear about channel stuffing?  Doesn't it wear any of you out having to make that excuse, as well as find justification for it, each quarter?  The cold hard face that none of you want to face is, SONY CANNOT STUFF THE CHANNEL 4 QUARTERS IN A ROW.  Yet, some of you still make the argument.  This is because of the other fact that Sony does not control how many PS3's stores have.  Retailers are in charge of their own stock, which includes how much they order.  Even if it's around the holidays and Sony is offering some special deal, retailers are still in charge of what they order.  If if they have millions of PS3's in their warehouse's collecting dust, as some of you seem to think, they will not order more.  And the only time they will return a product is if they and the seller make a special deal where if x amount of product is not sold, the seller will buy it back.  First of all, that's not going to happen to any console this gen, as they are all still selling pretty well and warrant new shipments.  And second, a retailer never wants to go through the trouble of shipping them back (and I would imagine the seller would require the retailerr to cover the cost of shipping.)  They would rather push the console out the door, which leads to the sales of games and accessories for that console, as that's where they make most of their profit.

You know, at first I was hoping that Sony would outship MS by a 1 or 2 by the end of this year or sometime in 2012, just so there would be no need to have threads like this anymore.  Unfortunately, I'm starting to see that even if PS3 outships the 360 by 5 mil, there will still be this argument.  And it will probably just start up again once the 720 and PS4 is released.  Oh well, I suppose.  That's just how the world turns.

Totally agree.

 

I demand a logical explanation from some folks on how Sony can overship / stuff the channels for 5 quarters in a row (since the slim).  My guess is I won't be getting any responses.

Don't think Sony is over-shipping, but MS needs to ship more. I think shipped figures can be misleading because the 360 sold a lot better then MS expected last fall, and shipped 360's aren't much more then units sold.

MS, just like Sony, can only ship as much as retailers are willing to buy.  Now, there may have been 360 shortages in early Jan for America, but if VGCs numbers are any indication, it looks like they have sorted them out in the past few weeks.



 

landguy1 on 07 February 2011
Booh! said:
landguy1 said:
ethomaz said:
landguy1 said:
4k1x3r said:
landguy1 said:

The shipped number gap is irrelevent.  Sony and Microsoft are not really interested in the shipped number, only the public.  Sony and Microsoft, care about sell through.  That is the only time that they will not see there product back

Wait what... -_- It's really becoming ridiculous, now people are even inventing new things just to make their argument valid.


Worrying about shipped #'s is a short term issue.  Do think that they are worried how many are out of their warehouse?  Yeah, if you thought that you were never going to sell them again.  Sell through is more important because that determines whether they actually need to ramp up production or create better incentives for their resellers or the consumers.  Like i said in my first post, having the units ship from their warehouse is a minimum expectation, not a big accomplishment.

Sell through is more important for retailers/reselers... but for Microsoft/Sony/Nintente the sell in (shipped) is more important and the number showed to investidors and shareholders.

Same thing as a response.  The investors that they are trying to impress are not the one's that read their generic press releases.  They are courting institutional investors, these investors control Hundreds of millions to billions.  That kind of investor does not jump in and out of a stock.  They look long term which would apply to sell through not shipped.  


Well, Sony numbers are sold units, not just shipped. Sold to retailers, that's it. Units that retailers paid to Sony: real money. It's a different case from (for example) Nintendo which in many countries sells to shipping companies, and then those shipping companies sell to retailers. Obviously investors like to know how long term sales fare, but that's why Sony (and many other companies) gives sales figures (that is planned sales to retailers). Sony plans to ship 2.8 millions units this quarter, that's alot, but investors think it's possible.

I explained this earlier in this thread, not this set of comments though.  Just beacause you have "Shipped" an item from your warehouse, that doesn't mean that it is paid for.  Sure, if it is going to a really small customer, but not large customers(Best Buy/Target/Walmart/ToysRUs and maybe a Gamestop/Amazon).  Large Customers will hold LARGE stock levels, due to the Manufacturer (SOny/M$/Nintendo) offering the right terms.  Most of the time, these items have 30-90 days to be paid for.  Also, they will have inducements included in that to make it easier for the reseller to sell them to the end customer(rebates/credits for selling them or advertising tie ins).  So, if you think that just because they are shipped, that they are sold, your are off a bit.  As far as investors go, i agree that they look to Sony/M$ for guidance for units shipped, but NPD wouldn't exist if they didn't really want more info than that...



landguy1 on 07 February 2011
thismeintiel said:
Michael-5 said:
FinalEvangelion said:
thismeintiel said:

Good grief, how long is this thread/argument going to last?  How many times are we going to hear about channel stuffing?  Doesn't it wear any of you out having to make that excuse, as well as find justification for it, each quarter?  The cold hard face that none of you want to face is, SONY CANNOT STUFF THE CHANNEL 4 QUARTERS IN A ROW.  Yet, some of you still make the argument.  This is because of the other fact that Sony does not control how many PS3's stores have.  Retailers are in charge of their own stock, which includes how much they order.  Even if it's around the holidays and Sony is offering some special deal, retailers are still in charge of what they order.  If if they have millions of PS3's in their warehouse's collecting dust, as some of you seem to think, they will not order more.  And the only time they will return a product is if they and the seller make a special deal where if x amount of product is not sold, the seller will buy it back.  First of all, that's not going to happen to any console this gen, as they are all still selling pretty well and warrant new shipments.  And second, a retailer never wants to go through the trouble of shipping them back (and I would imagine the seller would require the retailerr to cover the cost of shipping.)  They would rather push the console out the door, which leads to the sales of games and accessories for that console, as that's where they make most of their profit.

You know, at first I was hoping that Sony would outship MS by a 1 or 2 by the end of this year or sometime in 2012, just so there would be no need to have threads like this anymore.  Unfortunately, I'm starting to see that even if PS3 outships the 360 by 5 mil, there will still be this argument.  And it will probably just start up again once the 720 and PS4 is released.  Oh well, I suppose.  That's just how the world turns.

Totally agree.

 

I demand a logical explanation from some folks on how Sony can overship / stuff the channels for 5 quarters in a row (since the slim).  My guess is I won't be getting any responses.

Don't think Sony is over-shipping, but MS needs to ship more. I think shipped figures can be misleading because the 360 sold a lot better then MS expected last fall, and shipped 360's aren't much more then units sold.

MS, just like Sony, can only ship as much as retailers are willing to buy.  Now, there may have been 360 shortages in early Jan for America, but if VGCs numbers are any indication, it looks like they have sorted them out in the past few weeks.

I agree that it seems that just about every qurter for the last 4-5 quarters that there have been MANY claims that Sony has overshipped the PS3.  I can only say that this argument will end when everyone agrees that the number shipped is what it is, just one number of manywhen analyzing the sales of the consoles.  It seems obvious, that the official numbers are true about that 2.8M gap in units shipped.  If people want to debate how we arrived at that gap, that is what people are doing.  Every time i see someone complaining about others discussions about a topic, i wonder why they bother to come to this site.  It is clear that just about every thread comes down to 3-4 ideas about how these or any of the sales numbers exist.  Because there is no way for any of us to really prove our points besides pointing to VGChartz numbers that have proven to be good guesses rather than fact and just about every other website or source is no better.  So, we are left to discuss these with guesswork and obvious fanboyism and hope that we can make intelligent arguments...even if you don't like the "stuffing" argument, that only proves that you were right last quarter, not this one(until the next set of numbers come out to prove that you were right again!).