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Forums - Sales Discussion - Official: 360 vs PS3 gap now 2.88m

psrock said:
Michael-5 said:
ethomaz said:

I love to see people here saying the "shipped numbers says nothing"... because the VGC adjustments was made based in these shipped numbers after all.

Just check the numbers... without "shipped numbers" VGC was 360 over 52m now and PS3 below 46m.

Yea, but 360 is also experiencing shortages. Shipped numbers are innaccurate when MS is selling off almost all of their 360's and struggling to meet demand, when Sony is stocking up for the 2011 year, and not selling as high of a ratio of consoles (sold/Shipped Ratio)


MS had shortages in December in the US only. Stocking up for 2011? lol that's a new one. where are they putting these stocks? 

And these numbers we are talking about represent the units shipped in 2010.  So the December shortages are very relevant to this thread.  I created another thread that you can predict shipment and stock on hand for the 1st qtr 2011.  Please take a look and make your own prediction.



Its libraries that sell systems not a single game.

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landguy1 said:
Booh! said:
landguy1 said:
ethomaz said:
landguy1 said:
4k1x3r said:
landguy1 said:

The shipped number gap is irrelevent.  Sony and Microsoft are not really interested in the shipped number, only the public.  Sony and Microsoft, care about sell through.  That is the only time that they will not see there product back

Wait what... -_- It's really becoming ridiculous, now people are even inventing new things just to make their argument valid.


Worrying about shipped #'s is a short term issue.  Do think that they are worried how many are out of their warehouse?  Yeah, if you thought that you were never going to sell them again.  Sell through is more important because that determines whether they actually need to ramp up production or create better incentives for their resellers or the consumers.  Like i said in my first post, having the units ship from their warehouse is a minimum expectation, not a big accomplishment.

Sell through is more important for retailers/reselers... but for Microsoft/Sony/Nintente the sell in (shipped) is more important and the number showed to investidors and shareholders.

Same thing as a response.  The investors that they are trying to impress are not the one's that read their generic press releases.  They are courting institutional investors, these investors control Hundreds of millions to billions.  That kind of investor does not jump in and out of a stock.  They look long term which would apply to sell through not shipped.  


Well, Sony numbers are sold units, not just shipped. Sold to retailers, that's it. Units that retailers paid to Sony: real money. It's a different case from (for example) Nintendo which in many countries sells to shipping companies, and then those shipping companies sell to retailers. Obviously investors like to know how long term sales fare, but that's why Sony (and many other companies) gives sales figures (that is planned sales to retailers). Sony plans to ship 2.8 millions units this quarter, that's alot, but investors think it's possible.

I explained this earlier in this thread, not this set of comments though.  Just beacause you have "Shipped" an item from your warehouse, that doesn't mean that it is paid for.  Sure, if it is going to a really small customer, but not large customers(Best Buy/Target/Walmart/ToysRUs and maybe a Gamestop/Amazon).  Large Customers will hold LARGE stock levels, due to the Manufacturer (SOny/M$/Nintendo) offering the right terms.  Most of the time, these items have 30-90 days to be paid for.  Also, they will have inducements included in that to make it easier for the reseller to sell them to the end customer(rebates/credits for selling them or advertising tie ins).  So, if you think that just because they are shipped, that they are sold, your are off a bit.  As far as investors go, i agree that they look to Sony/M$ for guidance for units shipped, but NPD wouldn't exist if they didn't really want more info than that...


Sony counts shipped units and sold to retailers units separately. Those 6.3 millions units are not shipped units, they are sold to retailers units, that's why you're reasoning is wrong.

e.g. For Q4 2006, Sony reported 5.5 millions shipped units and 3.5 millions sold units.



Booh! said:
landguy1 said:
Booh! said:
landguy1 said:
ethomaz said:
landguy1 said:
4k1x3r said:
landguy1 said:

The shipped number gap is irrelevent.  Sony and Microsoft are not really interested in the shipped number, only the public.  Sony and Microsoft, care about sell through.  That is the only time that they will not see there product back

Wait what... -_- It's really becoming ridiculous, now people are even inventing new things just to make their argument valid.


Worrying about shipped #'s is a short term issue.  Do think that they are worried how many are out of their warehouse?  Yeah, if you thought that you were never going to sell them again.  Sell through is more important because that determines whether they actually need to ramp up production or create better incentives for their resellers or the consumers.  Like i said in my first post, having the units ship from their warehouse is a minimum expectation, not a big accomplishment.

Sell through is more important for retailers/reselers... but for Microsoft/Sony/Nintente the sell in (shipped) is more important and the number showed to investidors and shareholders.

Same thing as a response.  The investors that they are trying to impress are not the one's that read their generic press releases.  They are courting institutional investors, these investors control Hundreds of millions to billions.  That kind of investor does not jump in and out of a stock.  They look long term which would apply to sell through not shipped.  


Well, Sony numbers are sold units, not just shipped. Sold to retailers, that's it. Units that retailers paid to Sony: real money. It's a different case from (for example) Nintendo which in many countries sells to shipping companies, and then those shipping companies sell to retailers. Obviously investors like to know how long term sales fare, but that's why Sony (and many other companies) gives sales figures (that is planned sales to retailers). Sony plans to ship 2.8 millions units this quarter, that's alot, but investors think it's possible.

I explained this earlier in this thread, not this set of comments though.  Just beacause you have "Shipped" an item from your warehouse, that doesn't mean that it is paid for.  Sure, if it is going to a really small customer, but not large customers(Best Buy/Target/Walmart/ToysRUs and maybe a Gamestop/Amazon).  Large Customers will hold LARGE stock levels, due to the Manufacturer (SOny/M$/Nintendo) offering the right terms.  Most of the time, these items have 30-90 days to be paid for.  Also, they will have inducements included in that to make it easier for the reseller to sell them to the end customer(rebates/credits for selling them or advertising tie ins).  So, if you think that just because they are shipped, that they are sold, your are off a bit.  As far as investors go, i agree that they look to Sony/M$ for guidance for units shipped, but NPD wouldn't exist if they didn't really want more info than that...


Sony counts shipped units and sold to retailers units separately. Those 6.3 millions units are not shipped units, they are sold to retailers units, that's why you're reasoning is wrong.

e.g. For Q4 2006, Sony reported 5.5 millions shipped units and 3.5 millions sold units.

I guess i will have to do what i hate to see on threads, but you will have to show me an actual statement from sony that provides detail to your point.  Especially in the last quarterly results.



landguy1 said:
Booh! said:
landguy1 said:
Booh! said:
landguy1 said:
ethomaz said:
landguy1 said:
4k1x3r said:
landguy1 said:

The shipped number gap is irrelevent.  Sony and Microsoft are not really interested in the shipped number, only the public.  Sony and Microsoft, care about sell through.  That is the only time that they will not see there product back

Wait what... -_- It's really becoming ridiculous, now people are even inventing new things just to make their argument valid.


Worrying about shipped #'s is a short term issue.  Do think that they are worried how many are out of their warehouse?  Yeah, if you thought that you were never going to sell them again.  Sell through is more important because that determines whether they actually need to ramp up production or create better incentives for their resellers or the consumers.  Like i said in my first post, having the units ship from their warehouse is a minimum expectation, not a big accomplishment.

Sell through is more important for retailers/reselers... but for Microsoft/Sony/Nintente the sell in (shipped) is more important and the number showed to investidors and shareholders.

Same thing as a response.  The investors that they are trying to impress are not the one's that read their generic press releases.  They are courting institutional investors, these investors control Hundreds of millions to billions.  That kind of investor does not jump in and out of a stock.  They look long term which would apply to sell through not shipped.  


Well, Sony numbers are sold units, not just shipped. Sold to retailers, that's it. Units that retailers paid to Sony: real money. It's a different case from (for example) Nintendo which in many countries sells to shipping companies, and then those shipping companies sell to retailers. Obviously investors like to know how long term sales fare, but that's why Sony (and many other companies) gives sales figures (that is planned sales to retailers). Sony plans to ship 2.8 millions units this quarter, that's alot, but investors think it's possible.

I explained this earlier in this thread, not this set of comments though.  Just beacause you have "Shipped" an item from your warehouse, that doesn't mean that it is paid for.  Sure, if it is going to a really small customer, but not large customers(Best Buy/Target/Walmart/ToysRUs and maybe a Gamestop/Amazon).  Large Customers will hold LARGE stock levels, due to the Manufacturer (SOny/M$/Nintendo) offering the right terms.  Most of the time, these items have 30-90 days to be paid for.  Also, they will have inducements included in that to make it easier for the reseller to sell them to the end customer(rebates/credits for selling them or advertising tie ins).  So, if you think that just because they are shipped, that they are sold, your are off a bit.  As far as investors go, i agree that they look to Sony/M$ for guidance for units shipped, but NPD wouldn't exist if they didn't really want more info than that...


Sony counts shipped units and sold to retailers units separately. Those 6.3 millions units are not shipped units, they are sold to retailers units, that's why you're reasoning is wrong.

e.g. For Q4 2006, Sony reported 5.5 millions shipped units and 3.5 millions sold units.

I guess i will have to do what i hate to see on threads, but you will have to show me an actual statement from sony that provides detail to your point.  Especially in the last quarterly results.


Sales of hardware (PS3): http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps3_sale_e.html .

Shipments  of hardware(PS3): http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps3_e.html .

Sales (PSP) : http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdatapsp_sale_e.html .

Shipments (PSP): http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdatapsp_e.html .



Booh! said:
landguy1 said:
Booh! said:
landguy1 said:
Booh! said:
landguy1 said:
ethomaz said:
landguy1 said:
4k1x3r said:
landguy1 said:

The shipped number gap is irrelevent.  Sony and Microsoft are not really interested in the shipped number, only the public.  Sony and Microsoft, care about sell through.  That is the only time that they will not see there product back

Wait what... -_- It's really becoming ridiculous, now people are even inventing new things just to make their argument valid.


Worrying about shipped #'s is a short term issue.  Do think that they are worried how many are out of their warehouse?  Yeah, if you thought that you were never going to sell them again.  Sell through is more important because that determines whether they actually need to ramp up production or create better incentives for their resellers or the consumers.  Like i said in my first post, having the units ship from their warehouse is a minimum expectation, not a big accomplishment.

Sell through is more important for retailers/reselers... but for Microsoft/Sony/Nintente the sell in (shipped) is more important and the number showed to investidors and shareholders.

Same thing as a response.  The investors that they are trying to impress are not the one's that read their generic press releases.  They are courting institutional investors, these investors control Hundreds of millions to billions.  That kind of investor does not jump in and out of a stock.  They look long term which would apply to sell through not shipped.  


Well, Sony numbers are sold units, not just shipped. Sold to retailers, that's it. Units that retailers paid to Sony: real money. It's a different case from (for example) Nintendo which in many countries sells to shipping companies, and then those shipping companies sell to retailers. Obviously investors like to know how long term sales fare, but that's why Sony (and many other companies) gives sales figures (that is planned sales to retailers). Sony plans to ship 2.8 millions units this quarter, that's alot, but investors think it's possible.

I explained this earlier in this thread, not this set of comments though.  Just beacause you have "Shipped" an item from your warehouse, that doesn't mean that it is paid for.  Sure, if it is going to a really small customer, but not large customers(Best Buy/Target/Walmart/ToysRUs and maybe a Gamestop/Amazon).  Large Customers will hold LARGE stock levels, due to the Manufacturer (SOny/M$/Nintendo) offering the right terms.  Most of the time, these items have 30-90 days to be paid for.  Also, they will have inducements included in that to make it easier for the reseller to sell them to the end customer(rebates/credits for selling them or advertising tie ins).  So, if you think that just because they are shipped, that they are sold, your are off a bit.  As far as investors go, i agree that they look to Sony/M$ for guidance for units shipped, but NPD wouldn't exist if they didn't really want more info than that...


Sony counts shipped units and sold to retailers units separately. Those 6.3 millions units are not shipped units, they are sold to retailers units, that's why you're reasoning is wrong.

e.g. For Q4 2006, Sony reported 5.5 millions shipped units and 3.5 millions sold units.

I guess i will have to do what i hate to see on threads, but you will have to show me an actual statement from sony that provides detail to your point.  Especially in the last quarterly results.


Sales of hardware (PS3): http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps3_sale_e.html .

Shipments  of hardware(PS3): http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps3_e.html .

Sales (PSP) : http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdatapsp_sale_e.html .

Shipments (PSP): http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdatapsp_e.html .

You just proved my point...  Sony does not disclose actual sales any longer, only shipped units.  They are not the same.
They don't disclose the terms of the sales(of course) they just call all units as sold.



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landguy1 said:
You just proved my point...  Sony does not disclose actual sales any longer, only shipped units.  They are not the same.
They don't disclose the terms of the sales(of course) they just call all units as sold.

After 2007 Sony didn't provide more SHIPPED SALES... just SOLD TO RETAILERS.

Because that about 2m sales from PS2 was counted two times... but that is another case.

The actual number 6.3m was SOLD TO RETAIL.



landguy1 said:
Booh! said:


Sales of hardware (PS3): http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps3_sale_e.html .

Shipments  of hardware(PS3): http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps3_e.html .

Sales (PSP) : http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdatapsp_sale_e.html .

Shipments (PSP): http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdatapsp_e.html .

You just proved my point...  Sony does not disclose actual sales any longer, only shipped units.  They are not the same.
They don't disclose the terms of the sales(of course) they just call all units as sold.

Quite the opposite, but you'd have said that I proved your point anyway.

For those too lazy to follow the links, Sony reported shipments until Q4 2006  (31 March 2007) and started reporting sales of hardware since mid 2006. The numbers that are now provided by Sony are sales of hardware.



Booh! said:
Quite the opposite, but you'd have said that I proved your point anyway.

For those too lazy to follow the links, Sony reported shipments until Q4 2006  (31 March 2007) and started reporting sales of hardware since mid 2006. The numbers that are now provided by Sony are sales of hardware.

Just for reference...

Sales of hardware = Sold to retail.

And VGC provide Sold to consumer.



Booh! said:
landguy1 said:
Booh! said:
 


Sales of hardware (PS3): http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps3_sale_e.html .

Shipments  of hardware(PS3): http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps3_e.html .

Sales (PSP) : http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdatapsp_sale_e.html .

Shipments (PSP): http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdatapsp_e.html .

You just proved my point...  Sony does not disclose actual sales any longer, only shipped units.  They are not the same.
They don't disclose the terms of the sales(of course) they just call all units as sold.

Quite the opposite, but you'd have said that I proved your point anyway.

For those too lazy to follow the links, Sony reported shipments until Q4 2006  (31 March 2007) and started reporting sales of hardware since mid 2006. The numbers that are now provided by Sony are sales of hardware.

No, I agree that they state them as sales.  My point from the begining has always been how you calculate that number itself.  This is really a matter of how they do their accounting VS. how they make a general reporting of sold units(again, without disclosing the real terms of the sales).  I have NO expectation that Sony or any company would publicly disclose their terms to their suppliers or to their resellers.  That's why the debate of sell through matters.  If a company ships a bunch of units to retail(example), accounting wise they mark them as sold units.  Now, on their balance sheet they move it to another line that is now waiting for payment.  So, they officially call them sold, even though they are not yet paid for(standard practice for any manufacturer).  The only reason that i even started this whole thing about it mattering about sold to consumer relates to the actual income from those sales coming later(even though accounting wise - the manufacturer can claim the profit right away).  So, all the way back to the top on this is that even though sony(or M$ for that matter) claims to have shipped/sold 6.3 million units that quarter, that doesn't mean that they have seen the income from them yet-which is what really matters from an investor point of view.  True enough, that in any case for any of the consoles this generation, the units would be sold through to the consumer by the end of the next quarter anyway.  



landguy1 said:
Booh! said:
landguy1 said:
Booh! said:
 


Sales of hardware (PS3): http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps3_sale_e.html .

Shipments  of hardware(PS3): http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps3_e.html .

Sales (PSP) : http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdatapsp_sale_e.html .

Shipments (PSP): http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdatapsp_e.html .

You just proved my point...  Sony does not disclose actual sales any longer, only shipped units.  They are not the same.
They don't disclose the terms of the sales(of course) they just call all units as sold.

Quite the opposite, but you'd have said that I proved your point anyway.

For those too lazy to follow the links, Sony reported shipments until Q4 2006  (31 March 2007) and started reporting sales of hardware since mid 2006. The numbers that are now provided by Sony are sales of hardware.

No, I agree that they state them as sales.  My point from the begining has always been how you calculate that number itself.  This is really a matter of how they do their accounting VS. how they make a general reporting of sold units(again, without disclosing the real terms of the sales).  I have NO expectation that Sony or any company would publicly disclose their terms to their suppliers or to their resellers.  That's why the debate of sell through matters.  If a company ships a bunch of units to retail(example), accounting wise they mark them as sold units.  Now, on their balance sheet they move it to another line that is now waiting for payment.  So, they officially call them sold, even though they are not yet paid for(standard practice for any manufacturer).  The only reason that i even started this whole thing about it mattering about sold to consumer relates to the actual income from those sales coming later(even though accounting wise - the manufacturer can claim the profit right away).  So, all the way back to the top on this is that even though sony(or M$ for that matter) claims to have shipped/sold 6.3 million units that quarter, that doesn't mean that they have seen the income from them yet-which is what really matters from an investor point of view.  True enough, that in any case for any of the consoles this generation, the units would be sold through to the consumer by the end of the next quarter anyway.  


Not really, shipped means shipped, sold means sold. The different account method was introduced by Sony in 2007 when PS3 was sold at a loss: counting sold units instead of shipped ones meant to delay by a month or two the loss derived from the sales of units, by delaying the formal delivery of the units to the retailers (and so their devaluation from the production price to the lower selling price).

Nintendo (for example) could not count sold units the same way Sony does, because in some countries Nintendo delivers its products through third party distributors.