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Forums - General Discussion - Atheits ... How Many On VGChartz ?

Rath said:
GameOver22 said:
Rath said:

I realise you aren't going to care about any of this post, but anyway.

 

Also could somebody give a biblical explanation for how we can see light from stars that are millions of lightyears away?


What do you mean by biblical explanation? Most people are not going to claim that the Bible provides a complete account of the universe. You are not going to discover calculus or the law of gravitation by reading the Bible. In the same way, the Bible does not need to explain the mechanism by which we view distant stars. The Bible is compatible with science, provided a strict interpretation is not used, so scientific explanations suffice for explaining the natural world and do not necessarily conflict with the Bible.

The main point is that the Bible does not need to explain how we see light from distant stars. It doesn't need to tell us the speed of light, the structure of the universe, the formation of stars, etc. because we have science which is much better equipped to do this. When asking someone to provide a biblical explanation for how we see stars, you're asking them to do something they do not proclaim the Bible is capable of doing.

Note: I am using the principle of charity here. While there might be some people who claim the Bible can provide these answers, I do not think they are the best representation of Christianity.

By biblical explanation I mean an explanation consistent with the literal young earth interpretation of the bible.

You're right that I used the wrong term, I should have said creationist explanation. Because as you say by taking a non-literal view of the bible it becomes much more compatible with science.

Oh, good point. That would be a signifincant barrier to them. I could see them saying that it appears like that because God wanted it to appear that way. They could say God wanted it to appear like the stars were millions of light-years away. To this, I would just ask them why a perfectly good God would want to deceive us. I could also see them challenging the science behind the phenomena (things like the speed of light and the universal red shift). To refute this, I would explain the science and theories. I don't know if that would convince them, but that is the best option I see. Personally, I don't really think they could provide a convincing account, especially one that was consistent with science.



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Yeah i am and happy to be so. Come from the UK so religion here isn't that big a deal and isn't forced upon us like in other countries... (not naming names)



highwaystar101 said:
oldschoolfool said:

I'm sick and tired of the you can't approve that god doesn't exist argument. You can say that about anything,aliens,ghost,UFO's. So should I start believing in those things,just because I can't prove they don't exist. I mean you can say that about any dam thing. There is no god,plain and simple,Religion is just something people have to feel better about themselves when they die. Whatever makes them sleep better at night. lol

Didn't you used to be a Christian? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Your thinking of someone else sir. lol



I am atheits too.



Try my new level at LittleBigPlanet: Amok's Cave ;D


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if i can remember correctly from my imposed religion class at schoo(yh, you need to study religion here in school specially chatholict one) god created people the same week he created the world didnt he? how can christians explain the many fossils that have been discovered, especially dinasours.the fact that fossils 



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kevin the wiiite said:

Link to Wikipedia article on josephus' writings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews

The problem you're pointing out is that we don't know if God didn't put a lot of things on earth to tempt us not to believe in him.  For instance, He very well may have put a ton of million year old fossils on the earth when he created it and put all of the light waves in place for all the stars so that as far as we know they are that old.


That would be a dick move by a supposed benevolent and good God. Celestial Entrapment, anyone? That would make him no better than the snake in the garden of Eden.

Reminds me of one of my favourite quotes on the subject;

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”



Mummelmann said:
kevin the wiiite said:

Link to Wikipedia article on josephus' writings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews

The problem you're pointing out is that we don't know if God didn't put a lot of things on earth to tempt us not to believe in him.  For instance, He very well may have put a ton of million year old fossils on the earth when he created it and put all of the light waves in place for all the stars so that as far as we know they are that old.


That would be a dick move by a supposed benevolent and good God. Celestial Entrapment, anyone? That would make him no better than the snake in the garden of Eden.

Reminds me of one of my favourite quotes on the subject;

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

The problem with that is the assumption that because God allows evil he himself is.  The Incredibles is a great movie describing a similar issue.  If everyone is a superhero, then nobody is.  In turn, if everyone always did good, then your actions would be relatively neutral.  God therefore allows evil to give good its proper context.  What is faith without temptation?  nothing.

And yes, apart from the occasional cold I do sleep quite well at night.  Better than the occasional nag in my subconscious, "but what if I'm wrong?  Does that mean I'm going to burn in hell for eternity?"  I don't know how anyone can live with that.

And according to the theory of infinite universes there would be some in which there is hell and some in which there is not, a 50/50 chance to burn for all you quantum physicists out there.



I'm not a fanboy, I just don't enjoy dual analog control.  It's d-pad or wii-mote for me.

the conduit has changed the way wii play games.

I know.  I'm sick of the puns too.

kevin the wiiite said:
Mummelmann said:
kevin the wiiite said:

Link to Wikipedia article on josephus' writings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews

The problem you're pointing out is that we don't know if God didn't put a lot of things on earth to tempt us not to believe in him.  For instance, He very well may have put a ton of million year old fossils on the earth when he created it and put all of the light waves in place for all the stars so that as far as we know they are that old.


That would be a dick move by a supposed benevolent and good God. Celestial Entrapment, anyone? That would make him no better than the snake in the garden of Eden.

Reminds me of one of my favourite quotes on the subject;

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

The problem with that is the assumption that because God allows evil he himself is.  The Incredibles is a great movie describing a similar issue.  If everyone is a superhero, then nobody is.  In turn, if everyone always did good, then your actions would be relatively neutral.  God therefore allows evil to give good its proper context.  What is faith without temptation?  nothing.

And yes, apart from the occasional cold I do sleep quite well at night.  Better than the occasional nag in my subconscious, "but what if I'm wrong?  Does that mean I'm going to burn in hell for eternity?"  I don't know how anyone can live with that.

And according to the theory of infinite universes there would be some in which there is hell and some in which there is not, a 50/50 chance to burn for all you quantum physicists out there.


You think you sleep better than me?

My conviction is as strong as yours and I have no doubts or occassional nags at all. Speaking of which, I'm going to sleep now, have to be up in five hours!



“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”


This is a position many atheists smugly assume.

"Is good willing to prevent evil, but not able?"  Perhaps his is willing and actively is preventing evil but our perceptions are so limited in scope and so speculative of short-term futures that we cannot fathom what a Divine Plan may be on an eternal scale encompassing all humanity.

Ex. Assume that the legends are true and that Lucifer thought himself better than God, led a rebellion against Him, failed, and the supporters of the insurrection were banished to a place without God--Hell.  Hell would thus be a place without anything resembling dignity, grace, compassion, etc., and possibly become a realm representing a perverse view of the opposite.  If God is omnipotent and all-loving, he would feel great pain that His creations lived in such a state.  What if this realm in its entirety was meant to become a battleground between Good and Evil; that the Master Plan, so complex, serves the ultimate and unavoidable purpose of making Lucifer, all his followers and all souls that rejected God realize their error to such an extent that they repent?  If God is all-forgiving, He'd welcome them into Heaven for all eternity.

Hell would then be a self-constructed prison for those who reject God and what He stands for--but a temporary prison.  For perfection would demand that no creation exist in there forever.  For all we know, the evils on earth are mere variables that God accounted for which may possibly be due solely to Lucifer's interferance.  If this is the case, God allows evil and yet is doing something about it beyond our comprehension that may result in its utter annihilation someday.  Since we cannot know one way or another, putting a limitation on God himself as the original claim "Is God willing but not able?"  that the rest of this train of thought is manifestly false.

We cannot know, but some atheists think they do.

"Is he able and not willing?"  Let's assume this question to be true.  Perhaps evil caused by man is a consequence of Free Will and OUR responsibility to deal with.  Philosophers have been arguing for centuries if this validates/justifies the absence of benevolent deific intervention.  Those arguing on defense of God make a far better more compelling case.

"Is he neither able nor willing?" Sounds like a leading question to me.  Is He?  What if He is able and willing? Well then I guess it's a perfectly justified reason to call Him God.



kevin the wiiite said:
Mummelmann said:
kevin the wiiite said:

Link to Wikipedia article on josephus' writings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews

The problem you're pointing out is that we don't know if God didn't put a lot of things on earth to tempt us not to believe in him.  For instance, He very well may have put a ton of million year old fossils on the earth when he created it and put all of the light waves in place for all the stars so that as far as we know they are that old.


That would be a dick move by a supposed benevolent and good God. Celestial Entrapment, anyone? That would make him no better than the snake in the garden of Eden.

Reminds me of one of my favourite quotes on the subject;

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

The problem with that is the assumption that because God allows evil he himself is.  The Incredibles is a great movie describing a similar issue.  If everyone is a superhero, then nobody is.  In turn, if everyone always did good, then your actions would be relatively neutral.  God therefore allows evil to give good its proper context.  What is faith without temptation?  nothing.

And yes, apart from the occasional cold I do sleep quite well at night.  Better than the occasional nag in my subconscious, "but what if I'm wrong?  Does that mean I'm going to burn in hell for eternity?"  I don't know how anyone can live with that.

Perhaps then you don't understand where we're coming from. Most atheists do not have a fear of hell that keeps them awake because they consider it no more scary than stories of the bogeyman under the bed. You don't fear what you understand is not real.

And according to the theory of infinite universes there would be some in which there is hell and some in which there is not, a 50/50 chance to burn for all you quantum physicists out there.

You clearly have a very severe misunderstanding of the multiverse theory.