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Forums - PC Discussion - Retailers threaten to ban Steam games!

ssj12 said:
Antabus said:
Foamer said:

I'm not calling DRM consumer-friendly though, read it again.

Yes you are. If some DD service is customer friendly, it should allow customer to sell their products if they want.

Just to say, I own 100 games on steam and if I could sell them, the number would be something like 20.


You do realize you can't sell PC games at all right? Heck, you can't return a game to a store if you purchased it because retailers cannot resell the game due to the CD key unless the game is defective and you are just replacing the title with a brand new copy (you will not get your money back). This is why there is no used PC game market for places like GameStop or PlayNTrade. It isn't just Steam, its the entire PC retail market that disabled the entire resale market. Since there is no resale market for PC games, they should not allow reselling of games. And if you think about it, the PSN, XBLA, and Wii's systems are exactly the same as Steam.

Trust me, I am far from the person here to side with the use of DRM, but Steam is far from DRM like SecuROM.


I can sell games, in fact I just sold couple of pc games. I can sell console games, so why shouldn't I be able to sell pc all games?

I know that you can't sell psn/xbla/wiiware games, but I don't buy those games because of that. If those games are available to buy from retail (xbla arcade collection or something), you can sell them. If a pc game is sold from retail, you should be able to sell it too. But no, thanks to DRM you can't. Steam is one of those drm solutions.



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Have you seen the PC games section in a Gamestop? It is a measly 6 shelf floor display close to the counter, while Wii, 360 and PS3 have entire sections of the wall dedicated to their games with the most popular and newest at eye level.

I would support this if Gamestop and others started to devote more eye level wall space to PC games. Otherwise, they are part of the problem for not giving enough prime selling space in the store to PC games.

As for the employees, don't even ask them about PC gaming, they will talk about it from a "Well I played that game on 360/PS3..." Gamestop, from the reaction of your average Gamestop employee, is not even training them on the latest PC games from my personal experience.

Shameful and now they want to blacklist Steam because Steam actually cares about it's customers and offers them a service tailored to their needs and not crowded out by the consoles? Insanity originated by greed...especially now that there are no GameCrazy stores to speak of to compete with Gamestop in specialty retailing.



Antabus said:
ssj12 said:
Antabus said:
Foamer said:

I'm not calling DRM consumer-friendly though, read it again.

Yes you are. If some DD service is customer friendly, it should allow customer to sell their products if they want.

Just to say, I own 100 games on steam and if I could sell them, the number would be something like 20.


You do realize you can't sell PC games at all right? Heck, you can't return a game to a store if you purchased it because retailers cannot resell the game due to the CD key unless the game is defective and you are just replacing the title with a brand new copy (you will not get your money back). This is why there is no used PC game market for places like GameStop or PlayNTrade. It isn't just Steam, its the entire PC retail market that disabled the entire resale market. Since there is no resale market for PC games, they should not allow reselling of games. And if you think about it, the PSN, XBLA, and Wii's systems are exactly the same as Steam.

Trust me, I am far from the person here to side with the use of DRM, but Steam is far from DRM like SecuROM.


I can sell games, in fact I just sold couple of pc games. I can sell console games, so why shouldn't I be able to sell pc all games?

I know that you can't sell psn/xbla/wiiware games, but I don't buy those games because of that. If those games are available to buy from retail (xbla arcade collection or something), you can sell them. If a pc game is sold from retail, you should be able to sell it too. But no, thanks to DRM you can't. Steam is one of those drm solutions.

Because it's illegal... in the US anyway, if anything copyright law is supposed to be more strict in the UK.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/09/first-sale-doctrine/

You've actually probably been breaking the law, it's just nobody has felt it worth it to track you down.

Just read an EULA before you install a game.



Kasz216 said:
Antabus said:
ssj12 said:
Antabus said:
Foamer said:

I'm not calling DRM consumer-friendly though, read it again.

Yes you are. If some DD service is customer friendly, it should allow customer to sell their products if they want.

Just to say, I own 100 games on steam and if I could sell them, the number would be something like 20.


You do realize you can't sell PC games at all right? Heck, you can't return a game to a store if you purchased it because retailers cannot resell the game due to the CD key unless the game is defective and you are just replacing the title with a brand new copy (you will not get your money back). This is why there is no used PC game market for places like GameStop or PlayNTrade. It isn't just Steam, its the entire PC retail market that disabled the entire resale market. Since there is no resale market for PC games, they should not allow reselling of games. And if you think about it, the PSN, XBLA, and Wii's systems are exactly the same as Steam.

Trust me, I am far from the person here to side with the use of DRM, but Steam is far from DRM like SecuROM.


I can sell games, in fact I just sold couple of pc games. I can sell console games, so why shouldn't I be able to sell pc all games?

I know that you can't sell psn/xbla/wiiware games, but I don't buy those games because of that. If those games are available to buy from retail (xbla arcade collection or something), you can sell them. If a pc game is sold from retail, you should be able to sell it too. But no, thanks to DRM you can't. Steam is one of those drm solutions.

Because it's illegal... in the US anyway, if anything copyright law is supposed to be more strict in the UK.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/09/first-sale-doctrine/

You've actually probably been breaking the law, it's just nobody has felt it worth it to track you down.

Just read an EULA before you install a game.

I don't care if something is illegal in US. I live in mainland europe and here you can sell the software you have bought. EULA =/= law.



Antabus said:
Kasz216 said:
Antabus said:
ssj12 said:
Antabus said:
Foamer said:

I'm not calling DRM consumer-friendly though, read it again.

Yes you are. If some DD service is customer friendly, it should allow customer to sell their products if they want.

Just to say, I own 100 games on steam and if I could sell them, the number would be something like 20.


You do realize you can't sell PC games at all right? Heck, you can't return a game to a store if you purchased it because retailers cannot resell the game due to the CD key unless the game is defective and you are just replacing the title with a brand new copy (you will not get your money back). This is why there is no used PC game market for places like GameStop or PlayNTrade. It isn't just Steam, its the entire PC retail market that disabled the entire resale market. Since there is no resale market for PC games, they should not allow reselling of games. And if you think about it, the PSN, XBLA, and Wii's systems are exactly the same as Steam.

Trust me, I am far from the person here to side with the use of DRM, but Steam is far from DRM like SecuROM.


I can sell games, in fact I just sold couple of pc games. I can sell console games, so why shouldn't I be able to sell pc all games?

I know that you can't sell psn/xbla/wiiware games, but I don't buy those games because of that. If those games are available to buy from retail (xbla arcade collection or something), you can sell them. If a pc game is sold from retail, you should be able to sell it too. But no, thanks to DRM you can't. Steam is one of those drm solutions.

Because it's illegal... in the US anyway, if anything copyright law is supposed to be more strict in the UK.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/09/first-sale-doctrine/

You've actually probably been breaking the law, it's just nobody has felt it worth it to track you down.

Just read an EULA before you install a game.

I don't care if something is illegal in US. I live in mainland europe and here you can sell the software you have bought. EULA =/= law.


Mainland Europe?  It says on your profile you live in the UK.   Where EULA's in fact do prevent resale by classfying software as NFR.

Mind mentioning which country you do live in?

There is a pretty good chance you are just uninformed.



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Kasz216 said:
Antabus said:
Kasz216 said:
Antabus said:
ssj12 said:
Antabus said:
Foamer said:

I'm not calling DRM consumer-friendly though, read it again.

Yes you are. If some DD service is customer friendly, it should allow customer to sell their products if they want.

Just to say, I own 100 games on steam and if I could sell them, the number would be something like 20.


You do realize you can't sell PC games at all right? Heck, you can't return a game to a store if you purchased it because retailers cannot resell the game due to the CD key unless the game is defective and you are just replacing the title with a brand new copy (you will not get your money back). This is why there is no used PC game market for places like GameStop or PlayNTrade. It isn't just Steam, its the entire PC retail market that disabled the entire resale market. Since there is no resale market for PC games, they should not allow reselling of games. And if you think about it, the PSN, XBLA, and Wii's systems are exactly the same as Steam.

Trust me, I am far from the person here to side with the use of DRM, but Steam is far from DRM like SecuROM.


I can sell games, in fact I just sold couple of pc games. I can sell console games, so why shouldn't I be able to sell pc all games?

I know that you can't sell psn/xbla/wiiware games, but I don't buy those games because of that. If those games are available to buy from retail (xbla arcade collection or something), you can sell them. If a pc game is sold from retail, you should be able to sell it too. But no, thanks to DRM you can't. Steam is one of those drm solutions.

Because it's illegal... in the US anyway, if anything copyright law is supposed to be more strict in the UK.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/09/first-sale-doctrine/

You've actually probably been breaking the law, it's just nobody has felt it worth it to track you down.

Just read an EULA before you install a game.

I don't care if something is illegal in US. I live in mainland europe and here you can sell the software you have bought. EULA =/= law.


Mainland Europe?  It says on your profile you live in the UK.   Where EULA's in fact do prevent resale by classfying software as NFR.

Mind mentioning which country you do live in?

There is a pretty good chance you are just uninformed.

There is a pretty good chance that you know less about the local copyright laws here than me. I have no idea why my profile says UK. I haven't entered my location anywhere.



Antabus said:
Kasz216 said:
Antabus said:
Kasz216 said:
Antabus said:
ssj12 said:
Antabus said:
Foamer said:

I'm not calling DRM consumer-friendly though, read it again.

Yes you are. If some DD service is customer friendly, it should allow customer to sell their products if they want.

Just to say, I own 100 games on steam and if I could sell them, the number would be something like 20.


You do realize you can't sell PC games at all right? Heck, you can't return a game to a store if you purchased it because retailers cannot resell the game due to the CD key unless the game is defective and you are just replacing the title with a brand new copy (you will not get your money back). This is why there is no used PC game market for places like GameStop or PlayNTrade. It isn't just Steam, its the entire PC retail market that disabled the entire resale market. Since there is no resale market for PC games, they should not allow reselling of games. And if you think about it, the PSN, XBLA, and Wii's systems are exactly the same as Steam.

Trust me, I am far from the person here to side with the use of DRM, but Steam is far from DRM like SecuROM.


I can sell games, in fact I just sold couple of pc games. I can sell console games, so why shouldn't I be able to sell pc all games?

I know that you can't sell psn/xbla/wiiware games, but I don't buy those games because of that. If those games are available to buy from retail (xbla arcade collection or something), you can sell them. If a pc game is sold from retail, you should be able to sell it too. But no, thanks to DRM you can't. Steam is one of those drm solutions.

Because it's illegal... in the US anyway, if anything copyright law is supposed to be more strict in the UK.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/09/first-sale-doctrine/

You've actually probably been breaking the law, it's just nobody has felt it worth it to track you down.

Just read an EULA before you install a game.

I don't care if something is illegal in US. I live in mainland europe and here you can sell the software you have bought. EULA =/= law.


Mainland Europe?  It says on your profile you live in the UK.   Where EULA's in fact do prevent resale by classfying software as NFR.

Mind mentioning which country you do live in?

There is a pretty good chance you are just uninformed.

There is a pretty good chance that you know less about the local copyright laws here than me. I have no idea why my profile says UK. I haven't entered my location anywhere.

Considering I don't know where "here" it's possible.  Though if I did know where "here" was it'd probably take all of 5 minutes to bring up info on it.

For example, it's also illegal in France.

From my expierence though, few people know anything about EULAs.

About the only place in mainland Europe I could think where you live if you actually are up on your EULA law is a scandenavian country of some kind.



dsister said:
ssj12 said:

Even Blizzard's titles without either need internet to play so I think your screwed since most publishers are starting to require internet authentication. So, get your internet up and running properly on your desktop and then you will be good.


Haha, yeah, i'm basically screwed right now. My point was more that although they do have a monopoly you don't infact have to use them to play games. Where with Steam and Windows Live they are necessary to play. 

I want to play the Witcher, so bad :( 

Wow, this sucks for you. What seems to be the reason you can't connect?



Kasz216 said:
Antabus said:
Kasz216 said:
Antabus said:
Kasz216 said:
Antabus said:
ssj12 said:
Antabus said:
Foamer said:

I'm not calling DRM consumer-friendly though, read it again.

Yes you are. If some DD service is customer friendly, it should allow customer to sell their products if they want.

Just to say, I own 100 games on steam and if I could sell them, the number would be something like 20.


You do realize you can't sell PC games at all right? Heck, you can't return a game to a store if you purchased it because retailers cannot resell the game due to the CD key unless the game is defective and you are just replacing the title with a brand new copy (you will not get your money back). This is why there is no used PC game market for places like GameStop or PlayNTrade. It isn't just Steam, its the entire PC retail market that disabled the entire resale market. Since there is no resale market for PC games, they should not allow reselling of games. And if you think about it, the PSN, XBLA, and Wii's systems are exactly the same as Steam.

Trust me, I am far from the person here to side with the use of DRM, but Steam is far from DRM like SecuROM.


I can sell games, in fact I just sold couple of pc games. I can sell console games, so why shouldn't I be able to sell pc all games?

I know that you can't sell psn/xbla/wiiware games, but I don't buy those games because of that. If those games are available to buy from retail (xbla arcade collection or something), you can sell them. If a pc game is sold from retail, you should be able to sell it too. But no, thanks to DRM you can't. Steam is one of those drm solutions.

Because it's illegal... in the US anyway, if anything copyright law is supposed to be more strict in the UK.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/09/first-sale-doctrine/

You've actually probably been breaking the law, it's just nobody has felt it worth it to track you down.

Just read an EULA before you install a game.

I don't care if something is illegal in US. I live in mainland europe and here you can sell the software you have bought. EULA =/= law.


Mainland Europe?  It says on your profile you live in the UK.   Where EULA's in fact do prevent resale by classfying software as NFR.

Mind mentioning which country you do live in?

There is a pretty good chance you are just uninformed.

There is a pretty good chance that you know less about the local copyright laws here than me. I have no idea why my profile says UK. I haven't entered my location anywhere.

Considering I don't know where "here" it's possible.  Though if I did know where "here" was it'd probably take all of 5 minutes to bring up info on it.

For example, it's also illegal in France.

From my expierence though, few people know anything about EULAs.

About the only place in mainland Europe I could think where you live if you actually are up on your EULA law is a scandenavian country of some kind.


Bingo. I live in Finland.

Here is couple of  court verdicts about licenses and right to sell used software:

http://juris.bundesgerichtshof.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung/document.py?Gericht=bgh&Art=en&sid=ed8a168ed01ef71d02ee07b87136d1c5&client=3&nr=22588&pos=9&anz=25

http://www.usedsoft.com/en/pdf/Rechtsgrundlagen/LG_Hamburg_Urteil_usedSoft.pdf

edit:

Maybe this will be more helpful.

http://www.usedsoft.com/en/company/legal-position.html

http://www.usedsoft.com/en/faq.html

You can find the links from there and a summary of those verdicts.

Damn, our supreme court's webpages aren't easy to navigate, so I just give you this link and the relevant part. I assume that you speak fluent finnish, because you said that you can find it out in 5 minutes. If not, try google translate... :D

http://www.oikeus.fi/uploads/y290krsquci.pdf

"Korkeimman oikeuden ratkaisun KKO 2003:88 mukaan kysymyksessä olleet tietokoneohjelmat
ovat olleet valmisohjelmia, jotka ohjelmistoyrittäjät ovat tarkoittaneet
yleisesti ohjelmien käyttäjille myytäviksi. Ohjelmien käyttöoikeutta ei ole rajoitettu
ajallisesti. Ohjelmat ovat olleet levykkeillä, jotka vastaaja oli ostanut kertakorvausta
vastaan. Nämä seikat puoltavat selvästi sitä käsitystä, että kysymys on ollut yksittäisen
tietokoneohjelman kappaleen lopullisesta kaupasta eikä vain ohjelman käyttöoikeuden
luovutuksesta. Tällaisia kauppoja ohjelmistoyhtiöt eivät ole voineet yksipuolisesti rajoittaa
tietokoneohjelmien myyntipakkauksiin sisällytetyillä yhtiöiden tekijänoikeuden
säilymistä tarkoittavilla ehdoilla sellaisin vaikutuksin, että yhtiöillä olisi edelleen säilynyt
tekijän yksinoikeuteen perustuva määräämisvalta myös asianomaisen tietokoneohjelman
kappaleeseen ja sen edelleen levittämiseen. Tekijänoikeusrikos ja tekijänoikeuslaki
ovat muuttuneet 1.1.2006 lukien. Korkeimman oikeuden tulkinnan kannalta
olennaisissa seikoissa ei ole tapahtunut muutoksia. Sen vuoksi korkeimman oikeuden
tulkinta on voimassa 1.1.2006 jälkeenkin."



I have always been an ardent supporter of physical brick and mortar products. Because they provide a lot of employment and I have a far stronger control over the game then when I by something on steam.

But even I buy most of my pc games on steam now (I only buy big releases like civ 5 physically, all my mid range and indie titles I buy on steam). Why do I do this? Because I was forced too. The decreased size of the pc sections in retail stores makes it harder and harder to find any games beyond the main releases.

Well done retailers, you've driven your ownusers away. Its not like many people wanted to use steam, the majority hated it from the beggining. But Valve worked on it and made it a great service, coupled with smaller retail space for pc games and the result is obvious. 30 million accounts and growing for a reason I say.