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Forums - Sony Discussion - Has the Playstation Move's apparent success made people go crazy?

Seece said:
steverhcp02 said:

.

Seece i agree with you. If i say "i dont believe the scenario im about to say" why the fuck do you assume i mean the opposite. I was merely pointing out by your argument against the move someone COULD do the same with the hardware of the consoles. Since i dont agree with your demand for "unique" users since the only relevance in SALES TRACKING is SALES and not "unique" i DONT AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT DEMANDING UNIQUE USERS FOR MOVE AND I DONT BELIEVE THERE IS ANY REASON TO ARGUE ABOUT CONSOLE INSTALL BASE ON A SITE THAT TRACKS SALES IN GENERAL.

No you didn't you said "Im not saying i believe what im about to say, but id say someone could argue pretty easily

Which to me paints a very different picture to "I don't believe this". TBH I've lost track of why you're even trying to argue with me? I never claimed the numbers on the front page were install base, I've admited install base is difficult for you and I to work out, but easier for ioi, trackers and Sony given the data they have, and that I think Move shipped and sales figures are good.

haha how does me saying "i dont believe what i about to say" not mean "i dont believe this"? Youve been so paranoid lately its getting awful.

Im saying i dont understand why install base is relavent to any discussion here when its never been an issue before?



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You need to fix the OP.  That 1 million figure is for all of North and Latin America.

http://www.cheatmasters.com/cmnews/0/4454/news.html

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/10/21/sony-moves-1-million-moves-in-america/

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6282621.html



FinalEvangelion said:
Carl2291 said:

The Wii is the record breaking, generation leader. Before the PS Move it was also the only home console that offered a wide array of Motion Control games available for it. That's why I used the Wii.

Can you provide any links/evidence that states to us how well Sony expected Move to do, without going on your own assumptions?

 Seeing that you mentioned the 360. I also want to say this -

MS Expect to sell (ship) about 3 Million Kinect units by the end of the year. Sony have shipped 2.5 Million PS Move units in a Month. Kinect is the product with MUCH more hype and ad power behind it. It's also the product pretty much everybody expected to win in the HD Motion War... Sony have also had to recently increase production.

I don't possibly see at all how you (or anyone else for that matter) can say Move hasn't been a success so far for Sony.


Same.  That's what I ask for all the people that said fans / Sony expected it to be a huge game changer.  It needs to be backed up with evidence.

 

What we do know is this... 

1.  Sony had to increase production of the peripheral and they did give shipment numbers - which exceeded most people's expectation.

2.  It was the first time PS beat the Wii under normal conditions for NPD.  The reason I say normal was it did when the price cut / slim came out.  There is evidence it stole some of it's thunder.  There are other factors too like the HDTV market penetration.

3.  Sony announced that they are going to beat their 15 million shipment projections for the fiscal year.

Things like 1 and 3 are things you don't lie about - unless you want to get in trouble.

As I pointed out, the burden of proof is on the Pro.

You quoted me, so I assume you're attempting to discredit my argument.  As my argument is not that Move failed, but that it failed to meet the reasonably assumed expectations, please tailor your evidence as such.

1.  Provide evidence that Sony increased production IN EXCESS of what they intended too anyway.

2.  The Wii is the weakest it has ever been.  The Xbox 360, commonly held by both Sony and Microsoft to be the PS3's primary competitor, has been beating the Wii for weeks.

3.  So...?

As for you final point, you don't lie in financial reports.  But even in their existing press releases they haven't lied, they have just left out important bits of context-related information.



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

Fumanchu said:

I just wanted to bring up the possibility of Sony reporting their 'shipped' figures differently.  I have seen it discussed in other sales threads and it definitely helps to explain the discrepancy between their shipped totals and VGChartz sell-through numbers.  It's the theory that Sony count back-orders on their books before shipping to retailers.  Of course I don't think anyone that doesn't work at Sony will be able to confirm or deny this, but when you see reasoning to argue towards higher sell-through data such as; "they've shipped 2.5 million units and I can't find one at my local retailer" I always think of this as a possibility.      

Dear god mate don't bring that into this.

People in this thread are having a hard enough time dealing with the reality that Sony hasn't sold anything like their shipment figures to the public.  Don't tell them that even the shipment figures are bogus, you'll never get out alive.

As the OP said, the apparent sales of Move (or lack there of) has sent a number of people crazy



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

starcraft said:
steverhcp02 said:
starcraft said:
steverhcp02 said:


you mean like the hardware boost that coincided with Moves release? and has elevated the bottomline weekly average 30k?

You keep repeating yourself saying "ZOMG i saw commercials...for a product.....they expect it to sell!!!!!" Well no shit. Companies make commercials. 

Ya know what i cant even start this, i cant fathom how you come to your reasoning.

You blatantly misquote me, ignore the SUBSTANTIAL evidence that Sony overshipped significantly and then (as the thread creator pointed out) misled us about their sales and yet it is me that has unfathomable reasoning?

Here is a simple picture, and I will paint our relative points within it:

1. Complete and utter resounding success by any and all standards.

2. Did ok, didn't set the world alight, didn't perform in line with it's very large amount of hype.

3. Failed.

 

Now I would be number two, and you would be number one.  As I pointed out with a previous post, a number of people, beginning with the thread creator, seem to be afraid of the notion that Move was anything other than Sony's second coming.

Sadly, it simply isn't the case.  Which is not to say that it failed at all.  In direct answer to the OP's title though, it would indeed appear that the perspective of some people has indeed been skewed by Move not meeting their aspiring hopes and dreams.

http://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-Move-Controller-3/dp/B002I0J51U/ref=pd_sim_vg_2

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1122178&_requestid=240510

For target i used my area code of "43609" but i encourage others to try their areas and see if there is a similar result

http://www.target.com/gp/store-info/find-target-store.html?asin=B002I0J51U

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Playstation-3-Move-Motion-Controller-PS3-Move/14658864

 

Hey man, dont let reality get in the way of your crusade or anything.

Yay.  Let's play anecdotal evidence wars woohoo!!!

Not a single substantial retailer in my MAJOR city is sold out of Move.  But that is irrelevant, like your post.  Because the likes of NPD, VGC and Chart Track (the only people we know that take regional or global samples) indicate clearly that Sony has not sold anything like it's original shipment allotment of Move through to the public.

You have, again, failed to indicate where I said anything about Pachter's first estimate.

Miami best buys.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1122178&_requestid=241803

New York Best Buys

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1122178&_requestid=242174

Las Angeles Best Buys

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1122178&_requestid=242003

Dallas Best Buy

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1122178&_requestid=242049

EDIT: damn i think my links arent working.



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starcraft said:

The Wii is not currently, and has not been for sometime, a measure of success.  The PS3 is currently DOWN year on year, right after the second most major release of the year for the console (assuming of course GT5 does launch this year.

You ask me for evidence of Sony's exact expectations, but I am not the thread creator, I am not the person in this debate with whom the burden of proof resides.  I could easily have created a thread, equally as speculative and malicious as this one, that implies anyone who genuinely believes Move did as well as it should have is crazy.

We have complete different reads on the "HD Motion War."  A casual glance through the Sony forums for the last six months highlights an enormous amount of Kinect skepticism.  I myself remain highly skeptical of Kinect.  I have found articles where Sony vaguely alludes to possibly accelerating production.

As you're in the pro-OP camp, and therefore bare the burden of proof, can you perhaps point me to an article where Sony says anything remotely along the lines of "we're going to produce more of Move than we anticipated this year, because our shipments are selling out?"  Not, "we're going to accelerate production, which we were always going to do because it's coming up to Christmas, but for publicity purposes it sounds better if I don't say this last bit."

You're wrong. It IS a measure of success in regards of pretty much everything to do with motion controls right now. It's the generation leader. It was the only console with Motion Controls out of the box before Move. It outsold the PS3 the week before move launch by about 10k units.

And you trying to use the PS3 being down YoY in your argument makes me wonder if you're actually being serious now. Do you remember last year? Do you remember what happened? The PS3 Slim/$100 Pricecut? The same week with Uncharted 2 releasing, which boosted PS3 HW 10% for the week on top of the Slim/Pricecut effect already in place?

You aren't the thread creator, no. But you're the one arguing that Move isn't a success. You need proof if you're making that argument. You can't just go off your own assumptions when Sony's own statements say otherwise. If it wasn't a success and outdoing the expectations they had, they wouldn't be needing to up production.

I'm not exactly defending the OP, so I don't need to give proof for anything really. I think it's silly adding fuel to the fire saying PS Move is making people go crazy. I'm just wanting to see the proof you're making your argument on. because going by what Sony have said before/after PS Move has launched (and what MS have said about what they expect with Kinect), I don't see how it's possible for it not to be a success so far.

So please. Show your evidence that Move isn't a success for Sony, and I will believe you and go on my way.

Edit: Going to bed, it's almost half 4 here. Will reply later if you ever reply yourself.



                            

steverhcp02 said:
starcraft said:
steverhcp02 said:

http://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-Move-Controller-3/dp/B002I0J51U/ref=pd_sim_vg_2

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1122178&_requestid=240510

For target i used my area code of "43609" but i encourage others to try their areas and see if there is a similar result

http://www.target.com/gp/store-info/find-target-store.html?asin=B002I0J51U

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Playstation-3-Move-Motion-Controller-PS3-Move/14658864

 

Hey man, dont let reality get in the way of your crusade or anything.

Yay.  Let's play anecdotal evidence wars woohoo!!!

Not a single substantial retailer in my MAJOR city is sold out of Move.  But that is irrelevant, like your post.  Because the likes of NPD, VGC and Chart Track (the only people we know that take regional or global samples) indicate clearly that Sony has not sold anything like it's original shipment allotment of Move through to the public.

You have, again, failed to indicate where I said anything about Pachter's first estimate.

Miami best buys.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1122178&_requestid=241803

New York Best Buys

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1122178&_requestid=241904

Las Angeles Best Buys

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1122178&_requestid=242003

Dallas Best Buy

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17006&type=page&skuId=1122178&_requestid=242049


You realize of course, that by continuing with blatant avoidance of sample-relevant evidence and continuing to produce anecdotal evidence with no substance or contextual base point, you do your entire argument a diservice.

Does anyone arguing in the pro wish to add their name to this young man's work?  Adopt his argument as their own?



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

Can we cut down the huge quotes too? This thread is a ballache to try and read...



                            

starcraft said:
Fumanchu said:

I just wanted to bring up the possibility of Sony reporting their 'shipped' figures differently.  I have seen it discussed in other sales threads and it definitely helps to explain the discrepancy between their shipped totals and VGChartz sell-through numbers.  It's the theory that Sony count back-orders on their books before shipping to retailers.  Of course I don't think anyone that doesn't work at Sony will be able to confirm or deny this, but when you see reasoning to argue towards higher sell-through data such as; "they've shipped 2.5 million units and I can't find one at my local retailer" I always think of this as a possibility.      

Dear god mate don't bring that into this.

People in this thread are having a hard enough time dealing with the reality that Sony hasn't sold anything like their shipment figures to the public.  Don't tell them that even the shipment figures are bogus, you'll never get out alive.

As the OP said, the apparent sales of Move (or lack there of) has sent a number of people crazy

Well I just want to say it's not my intention to stir up an arugment, I have simply witnessed these comments here more than just a couple of times and I don't know if there is any truth to them or wishful thinking by Sony deterrents.  I would love it if someone could set the record straight on this or whether this is a belief held to VGChartz trackers.  I don't always want to play devil's advocate but I have a bit more faith in the guesstimates of VGChartz. 



starcraft said:

The Wii is not currently, and has not been for sometime, a measure of success.  The PS3 is currently DOWN year on year, right after the second most major release of the year for the console (assuming of course GT5 does launch this year. 

You ask me for evidence of Sony's exact expectations, but I am not the thread creator, I am not the person in this debate with whom the burden of proof resides.  I could easily have created a thread, equally as speculative and malicious as this one, that implies anyone who genuinely believes Move did as well as it should have is crazy.

We have complete different reads on the "HD Motion War."  A casual glance through the Sony forums for the last six months highlights an enormous amount of Kinect skepticism.  I myself remain highly skeptical of Kinect.  I have found articles where Sony vaguely alludes to possibly accelerating production.

As you're in the pro-OP camp, and therefore bare the burden of proof, can you perhaps point me to an article where Sony says anything remotely along the lines of "we're going to produce more of Move than we anticipated this year, because our shipments are selling out?"  Not, "we're going to accelerate production, which we were always going to do because it's coming up to Christmas, but for publicity purposes it sounds better if I don't say this last bit."

You don't get the rules of debate, do you?  The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.  Otherwise you could accuse anyone of commiting any crime, and instead of you having to prove they commited that crime, the accused go to jail until he can prove he didn't do it.  Doesn't make sense, does it.  You made the accusation that Sony didn't meet their expectations with Move, so the burden of proof is upon you to show that to be the case.  Supporters have already quoted Sony as saying they feel Move will be a slow burner.  Then there's the fact that Move was sold out at retail stores and online stores within a week or 2 of Moves launch, clearly from low initial shipments.  So, where is your proof?

And you asked me to show you where you referenced Pachter's initial estimate, which I bolded for you, yet you ignored it.  I mean you're basing half of your argument on Pachter's first estimate, and even though he retracted it by saying he was lowballing his numbers and gave a new estimate, you choose to ignore it.  I just wish I knew how that works.  Faced with a hard fact like that, I'd have to concede to the other side.