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Forums - General - Angela Merkel = Hitler II?

sapphi_snake said:

BERLIN (AFP) – Germany's attempt to create a multi-cultural society has failed completely, Chancellor Angela Merkel said at the weekend, calling on the country's immigrants to learn German and adopt Christian values.

Merkel weighed in for the first time in a blistering debate sparked by a central bank board member saying the country was being made "more stupid" by poorly educated and unproductive Muslim migrants.

"Multikulti", the concept that "we are now living side by side and are happy about it," does not work, Merkel told a meeting of younger members of her conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) party at Potsdam near Berlin.

"This approach has failed, totally," she said, adding that immigrants should integrate and adopt Germany's culture and values.

"We feel tied to Christian values. Those who don't accept them don't have a place here," said the chancellor.

"Subsidising immigrants" isn't sufficient, Germany has the right to "make demands" on them, she added, such as mastering the language of Goethe and abandoning practices such as forced marriages.

Merkel spoke a week after talks with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in which they pledged to do more to improve the often poor integration record of Germany's 2.5-million-strong Turkish community.

Turkish President Abdullah Gul, in a weekend interview, also urged the Turkish community living in Germany to master the language of their adopted country.

"When one doesn't speak the language of the country in which one lives that doesn't serve anyone, neither the person concerned, the country, nor the society," the Turkish president told the Suedeutsche Zeitung.

"That is why I tell them at every opportunity that they should learn German, and speak it fluently and without an accent. That should start at nurseries."

German President Christian Wulff was due for a five-day visit to Turkey and talks with the country's leaders on Monday.

The immigration debate has at times threatened to split Merkel's conservative party, and she made noises to both wings of the debate.

While saying that the government needed to encourage the training of Muslim clerics in Germany, Merkel said "Islam is part of Germany", echoeing the recent comments of Wulff, a liberal voice in the party.

Horst Seehofer, the leader of the CDU's Bavarian sister party, CSU, who represents the right-wing, recently said Germany did not "need more immigrants from different cultures like the Turks and Arabs" who are "more difficult" to integrate.

While warning against "immigration that weighs down on our social system", Merkel said Germany needed specialists from overseas to keep the pace of its economic development.

According to the head of the German chamber of commerce and industry, Hans Heinrich Driftmann, Germany is in urgent need of about 400,000 engineers and qualified workers, whose lack is knocking about one percent off the country's growth rate.

The integration of Muslims has been a hot button issue since August when a member of Germany's central bank sparked outrage by saying the country was being made "more stupid" by poorly educated and unproductive Muslim migrants with headscarves.

The banker, Thilo Sarrazin, has since resigned but his book on the subject -- "Germany Does Itself In" -- has flown off the shelves, and polls showed considerable sympathy for some of his views.

A recent study by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation think tank showed around one-third of Germans feel the country is being "over-run by foreigners" and the same percentage feel foreigners should be sent home when jobs are scarce.

Nearly 60 percent of the 2,411 people polled thought the around four million Muslims in Germany should have their religious practices "significantly curbed."

Far-right attitudes are found not only at the extremes of German society, but "to a worrying degree at the centre of society," the think tank said in its report.

"Hardly eight weeks have passed since publication of Sarrazin's theory of decline, and the longer the debate continues to a lower level it falls," the weekly Der Spiegel commented Sunday.

 

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101017/wl_afp/germanymuslimreligionimmigration

 

Wow, Germany never learns, does it? Now I have no problem with the learning German part (I've always considered it stupid when immigrants don't know the language of their new country), though the whole "without an accent part" is going a little overboard.

However her statement "We feel tied to Christian values. Those who don't accept them don't have a place here" is unacceptable comming from the leader of a nation that calls itself "secular". Is she gonna throw out German atheists? Buddists? Does she not understand the concept of freedom of religion, or the separation between Chruch and State?

If you read the article properly it was the Turkish president who said, about Turkish immigrants in Germany. 



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I know quite a few Arabic folks, some of them have the most inspiring stories I've heard, some are so proud to be in America, they take to learning the language as a must along with the many other languages they know.

A Morrocon fellow speaks Arabic, French and now English.  He works for a living and he may not have a family but he works hard.

It would really hurt if this man was nothing more than a sleeper terrorist but when I talk to him, it seems like I tell him things he never thought of.

When I talked to him about 9/11 he asked me "what were Americans doing?" I told him I don't know, but I can tell you what New Yorkers were doing.

I told him that when it happened no one cared who did it, just that everyone wanted to know if there were survivors and how they could help.

"Who dun it?!" came 3 days later.

This is the kind of conversation that is encouraged when someone tries to embrace the society of the country they live in.

It's a conversation of mutual growth.



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Bladeneo said:

If you read the article properly it was the Turkish president who said, about Turkish immigrants in Germany. 

ah yes, he must be hating on Turkish immigrants as well then.



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I agree 1,000,000% with making immigrants learn the language but I do have to say making them become Christians is a bit iffy. Its Germany's right to do that if they want but for a 1st world country I wouldn't expect that sort of behavior. I expect that from a 3rd world country like Pakistan, but not a great nation like Germany.



rocketpig said:
DirtyP2002 said:

without reading the whole thread:

This is not about becoming Christians. It is about Christian / western values.You have to see women as equals and accept they have the same rights like you do. That is something muslims have their problems with.

Of course this also counts for gay people or any other minority.

So what Merkel actually says is against discrmination and for an equal society. Now think again if this might be the standard the Nazis tried to achieve.

Reading comprehension FTW!

At best, Merkel's wording was naive and rather poorly thought out. At worst, her wording was pejorative and demeaning to Islam.

She's not going to win any votes within the Muslim population by telling them they should become more Christian. If she wants to change the culture, explain the necessary changes in an entirely secular fashion. Don't start comparing the religions head to head. That's just stupid and I'd expect better from the leader of a western power.


I blame translation.

really if you are in Germany and hear what she actually said in German, it makes sense without disrespecting anybody.

I say: Well said



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Though she's correct to a point, Merkel risks horrible things through her language.

 

Ultimately Europe's problem is that multiculturalism runs its limits when you're trying to assimilate cultures that don't value multiculturalism. It isn't the case of adapting Western values, but adapting adaptibility itself, which other non-western cultures have shared in the past (Japan adapted reasonably well in the 19th century in creating their own hybrid, and the Mongols were quite multi-cultural in the middle ages)



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HappySqurriel said:

Right ... Giving an honest assessment of a problem that is emerging in many western nations is the equivalent of being one of the worst mass murderers in history.


This. I wish Europe had more politics with enough courage to admit this is becoming huge problem.



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I just read Merkel's speech in german and these are the exact words she was using:

"(Immigration bedeutet) nicht nebeneinander, sondern miteinander leben auf dem gemeinsamen Fundament der Werteordnung unseres Grundgesetzes und unserer deutschen Leitkultur, die von den christlich-jüdischen Wurzeln und von Christentum, Humanismus und Aufklärung geprägt ist".

 

Translation:

"Immigration doesn't mean living next to each other but together on the shared basis of our constitution and our german dominant culture, which is affected by christian-jewish roots and christianity, humanism and enlightenment".

 

And she said "those who don't accept chrstianity" which means as much as "those who don't respect it".

In german "to accept" can not be used to say "to adopt". It just means "to approve". I'm not sure if there's a difference to the english verb.



The dismissal of multiculturalism is very worrisome to me (as I have lived in multiple regions of two countries so far where multiculturalism is a real and thriving phenomenon), but comparing this woman to Hitler undermines all legitimate discussion.



Acevil said:
NKAJ said:

Probably the most misleading thread title iv ever seen. Just because she wants immigrants to actually try and integrate themselves properly into Germany she is being compared to a mass-murderer.


Seriously why don't we ever compare people to another mass-murderer like Stalin, why is HITLER THE STANDARD!

Well, Merkel is German. Hitler seemed more appropriate than Stalin.



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