Really? Wow, why on earth did I think he was told at the beginning of the game? Hazy memories I suppose, I probably should replay the game again to polish up my knowledge. Thanks for correcting me and my apologies for the misinformation. Nevertheless I still feel the same way about Ocarina of Time's opening.

I hadn't looked at things that way before. It's not ridiculous to suggest that the gods possibly grew tired with the Hylians, should I say incompetence? But this fight for the Triforce you suggested, could you elaborate a bit? Do you feel it was limited to the Hylians or specific species, and Ganondorf - as a Gerudo king - had no place trying to acquire the sacred power? Maybe they disliked how the Gerudo's had evolved as thieves of the desert as opposed to the other flourishing species of Hyrule and carried a kind of negative bias against them? Ganondorf himself did suggest something along those lines in the Wind Waker, or rather he expressed jealousy over the Hylians (correct me if I am misinformed here). Or perhaps they just disproved of Ganondorf's methods of obtaining the Triforce and his reasons for wanting it. 

I'm sure they have a very good reason for it - and I'd like to speculate further on what it is - but to totally cover up the land of Hyrule appears a little too rash, at least at first glance. I also can't help but wonder is why it was decided specifically to drown Hyrule, as opposed to other possible methods of devastation. I can't quite remember if this was ever explained at least to some degree in the Wind Waker.

I know probably everyone says this, but I loved the graphical style.

However, my favourite thing about the game is it's massive world size, leading to a large amount of side quests.  Some might find it boring, but I loved feeding all the fish, finding all the treasure maps and taking photographs of everyone.  It took me ages and several playthroughs to get all those trophy things.

There's an official story (from Nintendo) that was published around OOT's release, detailing the events leading up to OOT. OOT took place a short while after some fierce wars, where all the different races fought each other, excluding the Kokiri. The Gorons, the Zora, the Hylians, the Gerudo... they were all at each other's throats, the main reason being the Triforce. But supposedly these wars went on for a long time, and eventually people sort of forgot it all began because of the Triforce. It became just wars.

Zelda's father in OOT, the king, was actually responsible for the peace between the different races as seen in OOT. Ganondorf paying homage and kneeling before the king (as seen when you first encounter Zelda) is actually because of the recent peace and Ganondorf recognizing him as the official ruler of Hyrule (or so he wants the king to believe, anyway).

The fact that the peace was so newly found was also why Darunia, the Goron leader, doesn't really trust anyone not of his race, save someone from the Royal family of the Hylians (they were the ones responsible for the peace after all). All in all, it's a pretty interesting story, you should see if you can find it (answer: yes, just Google it. )

I want in on this thread so badly but my memories of this game aren't so vivid.  Uh, Medley and Makar sounds like "melody maker''?   Thats all I got.

Helios, I think framing the King of Hyrule as man choosing to forge a new destiny for himself and humanity is somewhat off-base. Certainly it's about rejecting lands previously given to his people by the gods, but his destroying the place isn't a rejection of the gods' designs, it's an acquiescence. The gods had already taken Hyrule away, and would have destroyed it if Ganondorf hadn't interfered; in destroying Hyrule, the King is accepting the fate the gods have bestowed on his people, in opposition to Ganondorf who was trying to reject that same fate. As I said before, the role of the King of Hyrule, even acting as a destroyer, is about acceptance.

Ganondorf, on the other hand, is not one to accept the mandates of the gods on any occasion. Hell, in his earliest canonical appearance so far, he actually commits deicide - not once, but twice. One can't claim that he was actively defying the Deku Tree and Jabu-Jabu as deities, but it's easy to see the beginning of his rejections of the mandates of the gods (in that the Tree and Jabu decree that he cannot be allowed into the Sacred Realm). And yes, the Deku Tree is never canonically referred to as a god (unless he is in Wind Waker and I've forgotten) but his place as a god equivalent to Jabun, Valoo, and Jabu-Jabu proves the point well enough. The thing here is that Ganondorf commits deicide - and defies the will of the gods - incidentally to his quest for power.

It needs to be noted that his anti-god activities never extended to the major gods of the Triforce (or the goddess of time, or the goddess of the sands), partially because they are untouchable and partially because they've never intervened concerning his machinations. The Triforce goddesses never actually interfere in the goings-on of Hyrule; the Twili are banished by the Light Spirits, the Sages are the ones who seal Ganondorf away, on and on. They can be assumed to be the ones who flood Hyrule, but this is the only time they ever act explicitly. It's worth noting that at this point, they're not actually able to compeltely destroy Hyrule; Ganondorf, with the Triforce of Power, is able to act as a counterbalance, holding off the forces of the ocean and keeping the power of the gods from completely sealing away Hyrule's power.

In fact, the machinations of the gods have been given too much import in this discussion altogether, particularly in the identification of the "chosen ones" in Twilight Princess. We know (or can reasonably assume) that the Triforce was bequeathed on Ganondorf as a result of his obtaining it at the moment that split the timelines, and that its other pieces went to the two people who best suited them (namely Zelda and Link). His lack of knowledge concerning his holding the power of the gods is probably the reason he didn't just conquer Hyrule again, and probably the reason the Master Sword wasn't needed to subdue him. We know that the Triforce pieces can be passed down through generations, given freely to whoever a holder chooses, as when Zelda gives Wisdom to Midna or as when Wisdom is passed down the Hyrulian royal family for generations at a time. We know that LInk of Twilight Princess is a direct descendant of the Link from Ocarina of Time (or at least he shares the same bloodline); it's not inconceivable that the Triforce of Courage might have been inherited, in his case. Of course, that's ignoring one other agency, and that's the Triforce itself. Yes, the Triforce is important in that it can circumvent the mandates of the gods, but it's also important as an active force of change.

We know the Triforce has its own consciousness; we talk to it several times over the course of the series. We know that it's able to act of its own accord, to charge people with quests and choose people most suited to hold it and judge those who are not. We know that, as a whole, it's as powerful or moreso than the gods who forged it. As an independent agency it's limited by its own nature as a tool, but if any particular machinations for stopping Ganondorf have been set up then it's probably by the Triforce itself. This is all just to highlight the point that the agency of the goddesses has probably been given too much emphasis in this discussion.

What I'm getting down to here is that painting Ganondorf as a puppet of the gods is incongruous with his characterization and with his part in events in all of the games in which he appears. He is never a reactionary force; he is the instigator of destiny. The Triforce seeks out heralds in reaction to him. The lower gods seek out protectors in reaction to him. The gods flood Hyrule in reaction to him. His actions have never fit into any larger plan for the people of Hyrule; he is a singular corrupting force who ruins the fun for everyone, so to speak. Pretending that he's a puppet to the gods is tantamount to saying that the gods were looking for a chance to flood Hyrule and he merely fulfiled the role of convenient excuse; I reject that notion. Gods do not plan for Ganondorf, they react to him. Same with the people. The only one who's ever explicitly tried to scheme against him (Zelda) ended up his prisoner for playing into his plans. Half the major events in Hyrulian history occurred as a result of Ganondorf trying to conquer everything.

Hell, I'd be willing to bet that the Master Sword's creation will be in response to him, too.

Slightly off-topic for the above but in keeping with this topic in general: the Deku Tree's gonna bring back Hyrule regardless of what the gods decree. That's pretty interesting.

maybe ganondorf is needed in the deities higher design. maybe his actions are preordained to trigger specific responses, in way that crisys after crysis, the world of hyrule continuosly gets better and even more full of the deities glory.

in that way ganon could be a puppet. a very sad fate indeed, to be condemned to serve the deities even in his struggle against them.

I don't think there's any particular reason to assume that's the case.

Ixis: The warring and strife that ravaged Hyrule as people fought for the Triforce is a long running motif of the series, dating back to at least to ALttP, though Twilight Princess is the first game to make it a focal point of the story. I cover the rest in more detail when I address Khuutra.

Khuutra:

1. On the King of Hyrule and the gods: I'm not sure I ever said the King acted against the will of the gods, and for the record, I don't think he did. The King realized he had to let go of the past, and perhaps he did confine in the wisdom of the gods. Be that as it may, I don't believe the goddesses had any real say in the matter - the future was decided by those people that had been chosen to represent mankind alone. I believe Hyrule was preserved precisely for that reason.

The true meaning of the King's wish, that man no longer relies upon the old creed of the gods, is what I find to be most significant about the Wind Waker's ending.

2. On Ganondorf and the gods: Ganondorf did put up a display of anti-god activities in relation to the goddesses when he desecrated their statues in Twilight Princess, not to mention his comment about them destroying the world in the Wind Waker. You could argue that the former was a symbolic act, and the latter a rhetoric quibble, but it is evident that he is not on good terms with the goddesses.

3. On the goddesses taking action in Twilight Princess: Ah... I don't want this to turn into a drawn out quote war. Suffice to say, everything that is said about the banishment of the Twili is this:

What do you think happened to the magic wielders who tried to rule the Sacred Realm? They were banished. They were chased across the sacred lands of Hyrule and driven into another realm by the goddesses.   

... 

Though the goddesses forbade us to return to the world of light, they left one link between the light and the darkness. Something called the Mirror of Twilight was passed to the protectors of Hyrule...  

- Midna

I will admit that is open to interpretation, but the light spirits are only said to have sealed away the Fused Shadow, not the Twili themselves. Ultimately, what does it matter if the goddesses act by proxy or not?

4. On the deluge of Hyrule: So you're saying Ganondorf prevented the gods from destroying Hyrule? That is an interesting theory, but what support do you have for it? The King of Hyrule says the gods intended for Hyrule to slumber so long as Ganondorf did not escape, and I always thought of it as a fitting and ironic punishment. The King suffered the opposite fate, being removed from his kingdom as he searched for the Hero that would finally defeat Ganondorf.

5. On the machinations of the gods: I am afraid I shall have to disagree with you about that. My interpretations of both the Wind Waker and Twilight Princess hinge upon the gods being the masters of fate, and I feel I have good reason to believe that. Twilight Princess in particular takes that theme to heart, as Zelda's statement during the ending scene makes evident.

6. On destiny: Like I said, I do not deny the reality of freedom of will or individual agency in the Zelda mythos. Ganondorf is entirely responsible for his actions. However, the role Ganondorf plays, that of the King of Evil, is one ordained by the gods, as part of the Hero of Time prophesy. Ganondorf chose to play that part, and that is wherein his freedom lies. However, in being the King of Evil, he is also a pawn in the game of the gods; that of the eternal struggle between good and evil.

That game, I feel, is what the King puts an end to at the end of the Wind Waker.

7. On the Deku Tree: Like the King, I would argue that land would not be Hyrule.

You have me at a disadvantage, Helios. Remind me of the prophecy of the Hero of Time. The only thing i remember via prophecy in that game was Zelda having a vague prophetic dream about dark clouds and a green light, while Rauru called Link the Hero of Time. I think the prophecy was probably in that latter part, but memory fails me.

I must admit I somewhat misremembered, myself. Whenever the Hero of Time is mentioned, his destiny is simply said to be to lead Hyrule to a new goden age. Every quote seems to imply safeguards having been taken against the possibility of an evil person obtaining the Triforce, with the exception of this:

When evil rules all, an awakening voice from the Sacred Realm will call those destined to be Sages, who dwell in the five temples.

...

Together with the Hero of Time, the awakened ones will bind the evil and return the light of peace to the world...
This is the legend of the temples passed down by my people, the Sheikah.

- Sheik

However, the essence of the story appears to be that Ganondorf's obtaining of the Triforce was not intended for, although it was a possibility.

In light of this, I am willing to change the way I look upon Ocarina of Time, and to a lesser extent the Wind Waker. The Wind Waker touches upon man's struggle to choose his own fate, by my reading, but on a more personal level than I originally thought. The line "and let our destinies finally be fulfilled..." speaks for itself, I feel.

Little is changed with regards to Twilight Princess; the game deals rather overtly with fatalism and willful resignation to one's fate, as exemplified by Midna carrying out the final punishment of the gods, redeeming her race by the destroying the Mirror of Twilight. A fitting antithesis/parallelism of the Wind Waker story.

One final thing of note; there is a set of dialogues on the Twilight Princess ROM that never made it into the game. Fans have translated these, and one of them is this:

When one who holds the chosen power appears...
Necessarily, one to accomplish the antithesis of that will be born.
That is the fate of those who bear the crests that were awarded by the gods you believe in.
Whenever those bearing the crests appear in this world...
An age of bloodshed will come, as often as need be.
Do not think everything ends with this...
Think of this as the beginning of a bloodsmeared history of light and darkness!

- Ganondorf

I do not suggest that either of us should take this into account in our reading of the game, but with regards to the general thematic concerns of the story, what would you say about this?