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Forums - General - Atheism and morality

richardhutnik said:
sapphi_snake said:

@richardhutnik

An ethics system of an eternal being who created the universe would naturally be superior.

Faulty logic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

If you were to get rid of all external religious systems, and purge them, would you end up with the forum not needing moderators to keep out troubled individuals?

No.

If the authority is an expert in an area relevant to the subject at hand, you can then reference what the authority says.  In this case, the presumption here is that an eternal being, who has a monster set of knowledge, creates the universe.  This entity is said to know about the universe s/he created.  This entity then would be of said to explains the do's and don'ts regarding the universe at hand.  Thus, in this case, the entity would be superior with a set of ethics proposed than individuals in the system, who have an incomplete set of information.

 

Nope, it still is a logical fallacy. This alleged authority figure must present arguments for it's possition, else said figure could be lying. The fact that that supposed being is eternal, created the universe, and has a monster set of knowledge is no reason to belive it anything it says without being presented logical arguments. Like I said, the deity could be lying.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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pizzahut451 said:

WTF??? Where the fuck did my post go???  I spent 20 minutes writing it, VGC 3 is the worst VGC version EVER

It apparently a bug that also has been eating posts I put up from time to time.  Make sure you do NOT have it appear in HTML format when writing, and looks like the format it should appear in when you reply.  Blank posts I have here are ones that got affected.  I also had the reply window disappear, killing what I wrote to.



sapphi_snake said:
richardhutnik said:
sapphi_snake said:

@richardhutnik

An ethics system of an eternal being who created the universe would naturally be superior.

Faulty logic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

If you were to get rid of all external religious systems, and purge them, would you end up with the forum not needing moderators to keep out troubled individuals?

No.

If the authority is an expert in an area relevant to the subject at hand, you can then reference what the authority says.  In this case, the presumption here is that an eternal being, who has a monster set of knowledge, creates the universe.  This entity is said to know about the universe s/he created.  This entity then would be of said to explains the do's and don'ts regarding the universe at hand.  Thus, in this case, the entity would be superior with a set of ethics proposed than individuals in the system, who have an incomplete set of information.

 

Nope, it still is a logical fallacy. This alleged authority figure must present arguments for it's possition, else said figure could be lying. The fact that that supposed being is eternal, created the universe, and has a monster set of knowledge is no reason to belive it anything it says without being presented logical arguments. Like I said, the deity could be lying.

You do realize this is a hypothetical case I mentioned, predicated upon what I saying being true.  When doing one of these, why would the subject of what is being written be not what I stated?  The only other area you can say would be worth questioning is the motives and intentions of the being.  If the entity desires to cause pain and suffering, then no, what is discussed as a code of ethics is suspect. However, let's assume this true of the entity:

* The entity created the universe and fully knows how it works, and what will bring about results.

* The entity happens to desire that there not be pain and suffering and desires the best for the creation.

Given these being true, answer me why the creation would be able to come up with a superior ethical system than the entity that created the universe?



richardhutnik said:

You do realize this is a hypothetical case I mentioned, predicated upon what I saying being true.  When doing one of these, why would the subject of what is being written be not what I stated?  The only other area you can say would be worth questioning is the motives and intentions of the being.  If the entity desires to cause pain and suffering, then no, what is discussed as a code of ethics is suspect. However, let's assume this true of the entity:

* The entity created the universe and fully knows how it works, and what will bring about results.

* The entity happens to desire that there not be pain and suffering and desires the best for the creation.

Given these being true, answer me why the creation would be able to come up with a superior ethical system than the entity that created the universe?

Nothing is perfect, and there could certainly be a moral system better than that concieved by the entity.

Your arguments rely too much on a hypothetical ideal situation.

But this discussion is pointless because:

1. There's no evidence that such an entity exists;

2. Your second point (the entity not being evil) may not be true even if the entity exists (and it will most likely still be failable even if it weren't evil).



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

pizzahut451 said:


ok, who the hell ever said that God lives in the clouds and has beard??? God's physical apperence (if he even has one) is nothing like in humans.


What makes you so sure of all that then? If god exists why can't he live on a cloud and have a beard?



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sapphi_snake said:
richardhutnik said:

You do realize this is a hypothetical case I mentioned, predicated upon what I saying being true.  When doing one of these, why would the subject of what is being written be not what I stated?  The only other area you can say would be worth questioning is the motives and intentions of the being.  If the entity desires to cause pain and suffering, then no, what is discussed as a code of ethics is suspect. However, let's assume this true of the entity:

* The entity created the universe and fully knows how it works, and what will bring about results.

* The entity happens to desire that there not be pain and suffering and desires the best for the creation.

Given these being true, answer me why the creation would be able to come up with a superior ethical system than the entity that created the universe?

Nothing is perfect, and there could certainly be a moral system better than that concieved by the entity.

And it is also concievable that you subconsciously believe in God, but don't know it.  If you want to argue that a theoretical construct is able to be superior at coming up with a system of ethics than a good creator who fully knows that which s/he created, then you need to show what that construct is.  Don't go and say, "It is possible to be concieved", but then you don't show what it is.  You are speculating about a construct that may or may not theoretically exist, that is somehow supposed to be your counterpoint, but it doesn't show up in the discussion.

By the way, prove "Nothing is perfect".  Maybe there is something that is perfect.  We just don't know, just as you don't know if there is anything out there that could produce a superior ethics system to what is considered God by many.



richardhutnik said:
sapphi_snake said:
richardhutnik said:

You do realize this is a hypothetical case I mentioned, predicated upon what I saying being true.  When doing one of these, why would the subject of what is being written be not what I stated?  The only other area you can say would be worth questioning is the motives and intentions of the being.  If the entity desires to cause pain and suffering, then no, what is discussed as a code of ethics is suspect. However, let's assume this true of the entity:

* The entity created the universe and fully knows how it works, and what will bring about results.

* The entity happens to desire that there not be pain and suffering and desires the best for the creation.

Given these being true, answer me why the creation would be able to come up with a superior ethical system than the entity that created the universe?

Nothing is perfect, and there could certainly be a moral system better than that concieved by the entity.

And it is also concievable that you subconsciously believe in God, but don't know it.  If you want to argue that a theoretical construct is able to be superior at coming up with a system of ethics than a good creator who fully knows that which s/he created, then you need to show what that construct is.  Don't go and say, "It is possible to be concieved", but then you don't show what it is.  You are speculating about a construct that may or may not theoretically exist, that is somehow supposed to be your counterpoint, but it doesn't show up in the discussion.

By the way, prove "Nothing is perfect".  Maybe there is something that is perfect.  We just don't know, just as you don't know if there is anything out there that could produce a superior ethics system to what is considered God by many.

Define perfection. Usually when someone describes perfection there needs to be limits to define the context of perfection e.g. a perfect score in an exam. Just saying something is the perfect being or the perfect moral code/ethics system is still entirely subjective. Defining perfection in the terms discussed here is not possible as it will differ from peron to person (or whatever being/entity we're talking about).



Scoobes said:
richardhutnik said:
sapphi_snake said:
richardhutnik said:

You do realize this is a hypothetical case I mentioned, predicated upon what I saying being true.  When doing one of these, why would the subject of what is being written be not what I stated?  The only other area you can say would be worth questioning is the motives and intentions of the being.  If the entity desires to cause pain and suffering, then no, what is discussed as a code of ethics is suspect. However, let's assume this true of the entity:

* The entity created the universe and fully knows how it works, and what will bring about results.

* The entity happens to desire that there not be pain and suffering and desires the best for the creation.

Given these being true, answer me why the creation would be able to come up with a superior ethical system than the entity that created the universe?

Nothing is perfect, and there could certainly be a moral system better than that concieved by the entity.

And it is also concievable that you subconsciously believe in God, but don't know it.  If you want to argue that a theoretical construct is able to be superior at coming up with a system of ethics than a good creator who fully knows that which s/he created, then you need to show what that construct is.  Don't go and say, "It is possible to be concieved", but then you don't show what it is.  You are speculating about a construct that may or may not theoretically exist, that is somehow supposed to be your counterpoint, but it doesn't show up in the discussion.

By the way, prove "Nothing is perfect".  Maybe there is something that is perfect.  We just don't know, just as you don't know if there is anything out there that could produce a superior ethics system to what is considered God by many.

Define perfection. Usually when someone describes perfection there needs to be limits to define the context of perfection e.g. a perfect score in an exam. Just saying something is the perfect being or the perfect moral code/ethics system is still entirely subjective. Defining perfection in the terms discussed here is not possible as it will differ from peron to person (or whatever being/entity we're talking about).

Thus, it is best to NOT say "Nothing is perfect".  One can view perfection as being complete and lacking nothing, or without any flaws or blemishes.



sapphi_snake said:
MARCUSDJACKSON said:
sapphi_snake said:
MARCUSDJACKSON said:

be fruitful and multiply(quote from the bible), so sex before marriage is not a sin.

Actually that quote is generally used against contraception. Sex for non-reproductive reasons is a sin (according to that quote).



i dissagree. iiii? a snake lol!

Yeah. I'm a Sssnake. I'm gonna tempt you. Don't have sssex before marriage!

If a person can find a thousand different meanings in a vague statement made by the bible, why do people find it difficult to just leave the slate blank and come up with their own opinion?



I survived the Apocalyps3

richardhutnik said:

And it is also concievable that you subconsciously believe in God, but don't know it.  If you want to argue that a theoretical construct is able to be superior at coming up with a system of ethics than a good creator who fully knows that which s/he created, then you need to show what that construct is.  Don't go and say, "It is possible to be concieved", but then you don't show what it is.  You are speculating about a construct that may or may not theoretically exist, that is somehow supposed to be your counterpoint, but it doesn't show up in the discussion.

By the way, prove "Nothing is perfect".  Maybe there is something that is perfect.  We just don't know, just as you don't know if there is anything out there that could produce a superior ethics system to what is considered God by many.

I don't understand how I could subconsciously believe in "God"? Are you talking of the result of the indoctrination my parents and the schools in my country tried?

Well "God" is a theoretical construct which may or may not (most likely) exist, so let's say that the theoretical construct capable of coming up with a superior moral/ethical system is "God's creator" (he has to have one after all). Seriously speaking any person with the ability to think could come up with a superior moral/ethical system (not to mention that morals are subjective anyway).

As for me proving that "nothing is perfect", well I've never heard of anything being perfect, have you. No matter how good something is there will always be room for improvement. What do you know of that is perfect (other than made up concepts in your mind)? And the ethical system of Christians is not even close to perfection.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)