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Forums - General Discussion - Culture and Islam; coinciding with current events

SamuelRSmith said:

And to what extent do you believe that these cultural differences are linked to prosperity? I mean, the concept of the nation-state has been the backbone of global culture since the 17th century (the idea introduced in the Treaty of Westphalia in 16-something-or-other), and yet, in recent decades, this culture, this idea has been slowly - but surely - fading in the name of greater prosperities.

Other cultures are also fading in the Western World due to greater prosperity - look at the relative diminishing importance of the monarchies in Europe. And, on other levels, the changes in architecture. Equal rights, democracy, and personal freedoms also seem to become of far greater importance as wealth increases.

When I look at the Middle-East, I see that the views of the people are very similar to the views of Europe centuries ago. Borders are still issues worth going to war over, frequent and frivolous use of capital punishment, in-equal rights between ethnicities and genders, strong monarchies and/or dictatorships.

What the Middle-East really needs is a democratic revolution, and it is happening, though maybe only on a small scale for the moment - Iraq and Afghanistan are being pushed forward by the hands of the West, but we are starting to see grass-roots movement for democracy in countries like Iran - remember those protests last year? What Europe showed is that no matter how hard the Government may try, those protests will forever continue until democracy prevails. The Government can merely delay the revolution, it cannot deny it.

When democracy does finally stretch itself across the Middle-East, development will be rapid - secularism will happen over time, though it may not be immediate - and other Western cultural ideas will start to prop up alongside it - equal rights, reduction of capital punishment, etc.

By this point, the Middle-East will probably see capitalism slowly enter throughout - stronger property rights and contract laws - favoured by democratic Governments - will see small domestic businesses popping up and prospering, as well as huge levels of foreign investment.

At this point, I honestly believe that it will only be a couple of decades before the Middle East becomes a dustier version of Europe.

Basically, what I'm getting at is that the huge, gaping differences in culture are strongly linked to the huge, gaping differences in wealth.

Iran has actually been one of the more forward countries, given that they adopted a Constitution way back in 1906 (with quiet nudging from Britain and Russia, both of whom wanted an Iran neutral from one another, and hoped democracy would make that easier).

Iran went to radical Islam primarily as a reaction to Western interference, since Western influence helped bring democracy, Western influence took it away more directly in 1953 with a CIA-supported coup against the Democratic government because it was leaning a little too far to the left for comfort, so they let the pro-Western shah take total control, which in turn laid the seeds for the Islamic Revolution

Larger forces often influence the political growth of nations, and most of the regimes currently existing in the Middle East have their roots from global influence. Iraq's American-funded democracy, the British-approved Sheikhs of the gulf-coast and Jordan, the post-cold-war regime in Yemen, the UN-installed Israelis, and the reactionary Syrians and Iranians. Only Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Lebanon's current government systems were defined by either domestic or at least local concerns



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miz1q2w3e said:
hasanwhy said:

 

As an American Muslim, I can truly say that most issues that relates to Islam from a western perspective are from culture-differences. 

My parents are foreign as so is my background. The logic that they use to base their common-sense is actually different from my own. I'm western. I live and think like someone from the US. I would be lying to you if I said that relations with my parents were smooth on various issues. After years of giving this much thought, the only answer I can come up with why my parents thought in the way they did and why would muslims from eastern countries be angered over the burning of their own book or ex cetera is culture

 

 

I'm sorta in the same situation as you, but i'm an athiest & consider myself to be "sorta" muslim-ish, like I sorta used to be muslim/kinda still am (parents ...etc), I briefly attended a religious school, but most of my knowledge comes from the fact that my family moved around a bit and spent a few years studying in my home country (called Jordan, as in "the kingdom of ..") where religion is taught in their school curriculum

So my question is are you like really muslim or just "sorta" muslim? - see next post

Well, I consider myself a Muslim because I pray, almost :p, 5 times a day and regularly visit my community mosque. I also consider myself an American for I was born in the US, live and abide by US laws, respect the freedoms I have been given, and look up to famous US figures of the past like Theodore Roosevelt ( He's one of my most favorite presidents, lol. ) 



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heruamon said:

You're a PS3 fan...I'm not sure about you...lol...just kidding.

"For as we further continue to seek knowledge, we'll never truly shut ourselves to a singular view upon our tiny world. A world that seems to get larger and more diverse with each passing day. "

Indeed my friend...indeed!

LOL, I may look like a PS3 fan, but I have MUCH more depth than that. I'm simply do not go onto online forums and rage in support of the console that I own. That would be a rather fruitless endeavor. 



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TheRealMafoo said:
hasanwhy said:
TheRealMafoo said:
hasanwhy said:

With so many cultures throughout our beautiful world, its almost certain that there will be differences in ideologies and schools of thought. What one act may seem to one group may be seen differently to another and vice-versa. This isn't wrong.


Yes it is.

There are places in the world, where forced sex with 12 year old boys is common. It's part of there culture. That doesn't make it right. It's wrong. I like that you think the world is generally good but just different, but it's just not true.

Most of the countries in the world, are ruled by men and not law. Those countries are not a good in the world.

As for being a Muslim growing up the the US, great. I am glad you're here. The issue I have with Muslims in general, is that being Muslim does not mean the same thing to everyone.

There are many kinds of Muslims. Most are good, but some are bad. What would be great, is if we had two words to distinguish the people who follow Islam that are good (like you), and a word that means the rest of the religion.

In Christianity, we have that breakdown. When people think of religious leaders molesting boys, they don't think of Christians. They think of Catholics. When they think of cult like religions that follow the new testament, we don't think of Christians, we think of Mormons.

I know that if your in Iran, there are names for the different Muslim groups. Those names never make it to America. All we hear, is Muslim. I wish that would change, so when I talk about a group of people who need to be talked about, people don't think I mean you.

I agree with you that they're many atrocities in this world where such behavior is seen as normal. But I was referring to was differences in opinions not criminal behavior. I was trying to say that everyone is different but that doesn't necessarily mean that its a bad thing. 

Although I agree with the beginning portion of your post, I respectfully disagree with the rest. Labeling individuals to a certain group for there actions is, in my opinion, profiling. An entire group cannot be subjugated for the actions of some. Using your example, all catholic leaders are not child molesters nor can all child molesters be pinned as catholics.

Your post started with,"Yes it is." Yes to what? Yes to that differences are wrong or were you trying to use that statement to help define the underage sex example you used? 

Your post has given me the feeling that you may have a superiority complex going on. Please prove that that is wrong and you are not like that. 

The "Yes it is" means that some cultures, have aspects of them that are wrong.

Your OP made it sound like aspects of the world that are common place that we find uncomfortable, is just a matter of culture. And that it's ok for other countries to behave the way they do. Some things, like food, I can understand. Most Muslin countries have massive human rights violations, especially towards woman. That's not OK.

And in my example, I did not say all catholic priests are child molesters. I mean 95% of all child molesters that are Christian preachers, are Catholic. That statistic might not be true, that that was the point of it.

Let me ask you this...

if I have 10 religions in my county, and 10 million of each (so I have 100 million people in my country), and 100 terrorist acts happen in a year. Of those 100 terrorist acts, 100 of them come from one religious group.

That's still statistically a very small percentage of the one religion, so I would not condemn the entire religion, but are you telling me that when I take whatever action I need to take to stop these attacks, I should just forget about whatever religion had every terrorist. That that's useless information that's just a coincidence?

This is what our federal government is trying to do, and I think is wrong.

Well, it would make tremendous amounts of sense to take a realistic view of your current problem and apply a solution as you see fit. But terrorism has more depth than just the want to kill those who are different from you. Its fueled through twisted reasoning and flawed logic. 

If the government did go along and took action against individuals following a certain faith, how would the knowledge of knowing their religion help to stop terrorist attacks? Like if all those who follow that religion wore red hats, are federal authorities supposed to find and question all those with red heads? Would that help to lead them in the right direction? What if the terrorist suddenly decides to not wear a hat at all for cover? Knowing his religion or his country of origin wouldn't really help out if he is incognito. And what about all those innocent people who follow that religion peacefully? Are they just supposed to be questioned constantly of their mental stability? Wouldn't that person find that quite a nuisance? 

Again, like I've stated, thats profiling. If governments were to suddenly counterattack terrorism using their religion as a tool to help find or take them down, that is as if saying the government agrees to questioning of all those who are followers of that particular religion and must be solicited or interrogated. That wouldn't sit well with the international community, so its not a good stance to take. It may make sense to do so, but there are consequences for taking such a stance. 



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Many people like to think "We are good people and they are wrong", since we are in a western based society, it is very easy to blame muslim for all their actions, but you can see we have our own issues and we can not grant innocence went someone acts in a criminal way.

The USA are one of the few western countries when a boy can easily grab a gun and shot everyone at school, it is very common to hear stories about a wife killing his husband cause it was profitable for her since "she wanted the money from their insurace company" and many other stories.

Now, i wont blame and treat all the people in the USA "cause they are like that", i know there are a huge stigma all around the world, it is not like "we are the perfect ones" and it is actually me the one that needs to put a little grain of salt to solve all those issues so we can live in a better world in the future.



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I loathe cultural relatavism.

I don't care what you're culture is, what you're religion is or what you're philosophical ideology is. If you do a practice that is harmful or an unwarranted restriction of a persons rights, and if this can be clearly shown through the use of logic, reason and evidence then I will condemn it at every single opportunity. I have no issue with the parts of culture that enrich life, such as art, music, food, dance, architecture etc. But the moment something is overtly harmful, an instrument of segregation, an unwarranted restriction of rights etc then you will find me in opposition intellectually.



miz1q2w3e said:
sapphi_snake said:

Well I pressume that in some cases it's hard to distinguish between cultural differences and religious diffrences. Plus in some societies religion and culture interwine, hence why people from such countries are so radical in their beliefs.

This is such an accurate description of the situation

the fear that some people express doesn't come from curtural difference. differences would cause a different reaction, like curiosity, maybe even hate, but not fear... The fear comes from the things that a group of extremists did a few years ago, and your saying that not everyone should be treated a certain way because of that small group... the problem here is that, to be muslim, I mean a *REAL muslim, IS to be extremist in thought/mentality at the very least.

*real as in you truly believe that Islam is the one true religion and that all other religions before it are obsolete as stated by the Qur'an/Prophet AND that you are willing to do anything to please you god as a result of said belief, this goes for other religions with devoted believers/followers as well, like christians, jews ..etc

True, as you said the * part applies to all religions. not just Islam.



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                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

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FaRmLaNd said:

I loathe cultural relatavism.

I don't care what you're culture is, what you're religion is or what you're philosophical ideology is. If you do a practice that is harmful or an unwarranted restriction of a persons rights, and if this can be clearly shown through the use of logic, reason and evidence then I will condemn it at every single opportunity. I have no issue with the parts of culture that enrich life, such as art, music, food, dance, architecture etc. But the moment something is overtly harmful, an instrument of segregation, an unwarranted restriction of rights etc then you will find me in opposition intellectually.

Me too. Some practices are just wrong (mainly those that imply causing harm to another or limiting their rights). This is the main problem I have with immigrants from primitive countries who are still stuck in the Dark Ages.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

FaRmLaNd said:

I loathe cultural relatavism.

I don't care what you're culture is, what you're religion is or what you're philosophical ideology is. If you do a practice that is harmful or an unwarranted restriction of a persons rights, and if this can be clearly shown through the use of logic, reason and evidence then I will condemn it at every single opportunity. I have no issue with the parts of culture that enrich life, such as art, music, food, dance, architecture etc. But the moment something is overtly harmful, an instrument of segregation, an unwarranted restriction of rights etc then you will find me in opposition intellectually.

I agree 100% with your post and quoted it because I think it deserves it.  I'm tired of the people making excuses for the way some Islamic countries and people act by saying that we either don't understand or worse that we're the reason (both of which are condescending and insulting).



Legend11 said:

I agree 100% with your post and quoted it because I think it deserves it.  I'm tired of the people making excuses for the way some Islamic countries and people act by saying that we either don't understand or worse that we're the reason (both of which are condescending and insulting).

It's not just Islamic people. For example in my countrie (Romania) many gypsies don't act civilised (live in tents, don't send their kids to school) and those that defend their primitive behaviour use cultural relativism.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)