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Forums - General Discussion - Culture and Islam; coinciding with current events

@TheRealMafoo

In Christianity, we have that breakdown.

Yes there are denominations (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestants etc.). There are denominations in Islam too (Sunni, Shi'a, Sufism etc.)

When people think of religious leaders molesting boys, they don't think of Christians. They think of Catholics.

Interesting breakdown of denominations. So if a Protestant minister rapes a little boy do you call him Catholic too?



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Lostplanet22 said:
hasanwhy said:

 

 

Many from the west have asked the question,"Why do eastern muslims answer to issues relating to their religion with vehemency anger?"

Not at all, I am sure that many understand that muslims react like that in Afghanistan, etc;.

but not when they are born in USA or Europe.

Multicultarism was once a dream coming true but thx to the growing extreme muslims especially in Western Europe, Multicultarism is more and more transferring to an multicriminalism society where you better don't say something about it in the open or you have a problem..

Your OP is very nice but you address it to the wrong people, you should say this stuff to the extreme muslim group.

I would definitely repeat my OP in-front of an extremist Muslim group anytime, any-day. I just wanted to get the opinions of those in the forum because like I said, this is one of those sensible forums that I admire. There are many intelligent community members here that I respect and so a little advice or comments from them in my opinion would be great. 



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To be honest with you the reason why there is so much anger towards muslims in America is because on this exact date 1000s of innocent americans were slaughtered by hateful, disgusting cowards who have no respect for human life.

Obviously not all Muslims are radicals, in fact most aren't but the fact still remains that these radicals who are nothing short of inhuman murderers cast bad light on the religion as a whole.

One of my best friends is Muslim and I love him and his whole family but obviously there is going to be a LOT of anger over what happened to us.



SamuelRSmith said:

And to what extent do you believe that these cultural differences are linked to prosperity? I mean, the concept of the nation-state has been the backbone of global culture since the 17th century (the idea introduced in the Treaty of Westphalia in 16-something-or-other), and yet, in recent decades, this culture, this idea has been slowly - but surely - fading in the name of greater prosperities.

Other cultures are also fading in the Western World due to greater prosperity - look at the relative diminishing importance of the monarchies in Europe. And, on other levels, the changes in architecture. Equal rights, democracy, and personal freedoms also seem to become of far greater importance as wealth increases.

When I look at the Middle-East, I see that the views of the people are very similar to the views of Europe centuries ago. Borders are still issues worth going to war over, frequent and frivolous use of capital punishment, in-equal rights between ethnicities and genders, strong monarchies and/or dictatorships.

What the Middle-East really needs is a democratic revolution, and it is happening, though maybe only on a small scale for the moment - Iraq and Afghanistan are being pushed forward by the hands of the West, but we are starting to see grass-roots movement for democracy in countries like Iran - remember those protests last year? What Europe showed is that no matter how hard the Government may try, those protests will forever continue until democracy prevails. The Government can merely delay the revolution, it cannot deny it.

When democracy does finally stretch itself across the Middle-East, development will be rapid - secularism will happen over time, though it may not be immediate - and other Western cultural ideas will start to prop up alongside it - equal rights, reduction of capital punishment, etc.

By this point, the Middle-East will probably see capitalism slowly enter throughout - stronger property rights and contract laws - favoured by democratic Governments - will see small domestic businesses popping up and prospering, as well as huge levels of foreign investment.

At this point, I honestly believe that it will only be a couple of decades before the Middle East becomes a dustier version of Europe.

Basically, what I'm getting at is that the huge, gaping differences in culture are strongly linked to the huge, gaping differences in wealth.

Interesting views. You can see that nations that have truly modernized and have tried to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor have become more democratic. I didn't even think about how the economy plays into all this. Good post. 



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TheRealMafoo said:
hasanwhy said:

With so many cultures throughout our beautiful world, its almost certain that there will be differences in ideologies and schools of thought. What one act may seem to one group may be seen differently to another and vice-versa. This isn't wrong.


Yes it is.

There are places in the world, where forced sex with 12 year old boys is common. It's part of there culture. That doesn't make it right. It's wrong. I like that you think the world is generally good but just different, but it's just not true.

Most of the countries in the world, are ruled by men and not law. Those countries are not a good in the world.

As for being a Muslim growing up the the US, great. I am glad you're here. The issue I have with Muslims in general, is that being Muslim does not mean the same thing to everyone.

There are many kinds of Muslims. Most are good, but some are bad. What would be great, is if we had two words to distinguish the people who follow Islam that are good (like you), and a word that means the rest of the religion.

In Christianity, we have that breakdown. When people think of religious leaders molesting boys, they don't think of Christians. They think of Catholics. When they think of cult like religions that follow the new testament, we don't think of Christians, we think of Mormons.

I know that if your in Iran, there are names for the different Muslim groups. Those names never make it to America. All we hear, is Muslim. I wish that would change, so when I talk about a group of people who need to be talked about, people don't think I mean you.

I agree with you that they're many atrocities in this world where such behavior is seen as normal. But I was referring to was differences in opinions not criminal behavior. I was trying to say that everyone is different but that doesn't necessarily mean that its a bad thing. 

Although I agree with the beginning portion of your post, I respectfully disagree with the rest. Labeling individuals to a certain group for there actions is, in my opinion, profiling. An entire group cannot be subjugated for the actions of some. Using your example, all catholic leaders are not child molesters nor can all child molesters be pinned as catholics.

Your post started with,"Yes it is." Yes to what? Yes to that differences are wrong or were you trying to use that statement to help define the underage sex example you used? 

Your post has given me the feeling that you may have a superiority complex going on. Please prove that that is wrong and you are not like that. 



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BenVTrigger said:

To be honest with you the reason why there is so much anger towards muslims in America is because on this exact date 1000s of innocent americans were slaughtered by hateful, disgusting cowards who have no respect for human life.

Obviously not all Muslims are radicals, in fact most aren't but the fact still remains that these radicals who are nothing short of inhuman murderers cast bad light on the religion as a whole.

One of my best friends is Muslim and I love him and his whole family but obviously there is going to be a LOT of anger over what happened to us.

Once the circle of hate is formed, its very hard to break. I'm angered that some of my own people did such a thing to my home and to my countrymen but I refuse to continue that hateful circle.

You shouldn't forgive someone who wished death upon you so easily, but if, hypothetically speaking, an Islamic terrorist who wants to change his ways and live a normal life was right in-front of you, what would you do and say?



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hasanwhy said:
TheRealMafoo said:
hasanwhy said:

With so many cultures throughout our beautiful world, its almost certain that there will be differences in ideologies and schools of thought. What one act may seem to one group may be seen differently to another and vice-versa. This isn't wrong.


Yes it is.

There are places in the world, where forced sex with 12 year old boys is common. It's part of there culture. That doesn't make it right. It's wrong. I like that you think the world is generally good but just different, but it's just not true.

Most of the countries in the world, are ruled by men and not law. Those countries are not a good in the world.

As for being a Muslim growing up the the US, great. I am glad you're here. The issue I have with Muslims in general, is that being Muslim does not mean the same thing to everyone.

There are many kinds of Muslims. Most are good, but some are bad. What would be great, is if we had two words to distinguish the people who follow Islam that are good (like you), and a word that means the rest of the religion.

In Christianity, we have that breakdown. When people think of religious leaders molesting boys, they don't think of Christians. They think of Catholics. When they think of cult like religions that follow the new testament, we don't think of Christians, we think of Mormons.

I know that if your in Iran, there are names for the different Muslim groups. Those names never make it to America. All we hear, is Muslim. I wish that would change, so when I talk about a group of people who need to be talked about, people don't think I mean you.

I agree with you that they're many atrocities in this world where such behavior is seen as normal. But I was referring to was differences in opinions not criminal behavior. I was trying to say that everyone is different but that doesn't necessarily mean that its a bad thing. 

Although I agree with the beginning portion of your post, I respectfully disagree with the rest. Labeling individuals to a certain group for there actions is, in my opinion, profiling. An entire group cannot be subjugated for the actions of some. Using your example, all catholic leaders are not child molesters nor can all child molesters be pinned as catholics.

Your post started with,"Yes it is." Yes to what? Yes to that differences are wrong or were you trying to use that statement to help define the underage sex example you used? 

Your post has given me the feeling that you may have a superiority complex going on. Please prove that that is wrong and you are not like that. 

The "Yes it is" means that some cultures, have aspects of them that are wrong.

Your OP made it sound like aspects of the world that are common place that we find uncomfortable, is just a matter of culture. And that it's ok for other countries to behave the way they do. Some things, like food, I can understand. Most Muslin countries have massive human rights violations, especially towards woman. That's not OK.

And in my example, I did not say all catholic priests are child molesters. I mean 95% of all child molesters that are Christian preachers, are Catholic. That statistic might not be true, that that was the point of it.

Let me ask you this...

if I have 10 religions in my county, and 10 million of each (so I have 100 million people in my country), and 100 terrorist acts happen in a year. Of those 100 terrorist acts, 100 of them come from one religious group.

That's still statistically a very small percentage of the one religion, so I would not condemn the entire religion, but are you telling me that when I take whatever action I need to take to stop these attacks, I should just forget about whatever religion had every terrorist. That that's useless information that's just a coincidence?

This is what our federal government is trying to do, and I think is wrong.



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"For as we further continue to seek knowledge, we'll never truly shut ourselves to a singular view upon our tiny world. A world that seems to get larger and more diverse with each passing day. "

Indeed my friend...indeed!



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

hasanwhy said:

As an American Muslim, I can truly say that most issues that relates to Islam from a western perspective are from culture-differences. 

My parents are foreign as so is my background. The logic that they use to base their common-sense is actually different from my own. I'm western. I live and think like someone from the US. I would be lying to you if I said that relations with my parents were smooth on various issues. After years of giving this much thought, the only answer I can come up with why my parents thought in the way they did and why would muslims from eastern countries be angered over the burning of their own book or ex cetera is culture

I'm sorta in the same situation as you, but i'm an athiest & consider myself to be "sorta" muslim-ish, like I sorta used to be muslim/kinda still am (parents ...etc), I briefly attended a religious school, but most of my knowledge comes from the fact that my family moved around a bit and spent a few years studying in my home country (called Jordan, as in "the kingdom of ..") where religion is taught in their school curriculum

So my question is are you like really muslim or just "sorta" muslim? - see next post



sapphi_snake said:

Well I pressume that in some cases it's hard to distinguish between cultural differences and religious diffrences. Plus in some societies religion and culture interwine, hence why people from such countries are so radical in their beliefs.

This is such an accurate description of the situation

the fear that some people express doesn't come from curtural difference. differences would cause a different reaction, like curiosity, maybe even hate, but not fear... The fear comes from the things that a group of extremists did a few years ago, and your saying that not everyone should be treated a certain way because of that small group... the problem here is that, to be muslim, I mean a *REAL muslim, IS to be extremist in thought/mentality at the very least.

*real as in you truly believe that Islam is the one true religion and that all other religions before it are obsolete as stated by the Qur'an/Prophet AND that you are willing to do anything to please you god as a result of said belief, this goes for other religions with devoted believers/followers as well, like christians, jews ..etc