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Forums - Nintendo - STUPID Metroid Prime Trilogy!

MaxwellGT2000 on 11 September 2010
Resident_Hazard said:

Yeesh.  I don't expect you to nod along since you're set on disagreeing with anything I post.  I didn't present conjecture as proof, I presented a logical explanation for why Metroid Prime 3 was one of the easiest games ever.  Because it was intended to be in-line with damn near everything else on the Wii.  Simplified and easy for the casual "blue ocean" crowd.  Why else would the game have been made to be so easy?  Clearly, that's not how Retro works given the intense difficulty of the previous two entries.  Hardcore games for hardcore people on, let's face it, a hardcore system--which the GameCube was for all intents and purposes.  With the Wii, the focus was not the hardcore crowd, especially early on--it was to expand the market by appealing to the casual crowd.  How do you do that?  You make the game's more accessible, and one way to do that is to remove the overt difficulty found in many hardcore games. 

New Super Mario Bros Wii follows a similar example--ease added to the gameplay which allows gamers to skip parts of the game that are "too hard" for them--you know, "too hard" for the casual crowd. 

People act as if offended that I could dare think Nintendo wanted Prime 3 to be made easier with the reasoning to be the expanded audience.  Why the hell else would Retro suddenly break with the style of the previous games?  Give me a valid theory that is different than mine.  Don't just pop in and try to make yourself look superior by offering no valid conversation--all you did is come in and say "that's ridiculous. You don't have proof. Cite proof to a theory.  You don't know what logic is. I don't either, but I'm going to act like I do." 

Seriously dude, contribute.  Why else was Prime 3 so incredibly easy compared to Prime 1 and the incredibly punishing Prime 2?  What's your explanation?

Otherwise, all I see is a response from someone who's, somehow, offended by the idea that Nintendo is the reason Metroid Prime 3 was, to put it bluntly, dumbed down for the casual crowd.

Again, the Wii is all about ease, easier gameplay, and accessibility (where gameplay is concerned).  The vast majority of Nintendo's releases on the system, aside from Super Mario Galaxy 2, Sin & Punishment (and maybe another one) have  been light on difficulty and easy on gameplay.  I flat-out sucked at Punch-Out back in the day, and Super Punch-Out is notorious for it's difficulty.  The new one (essentially a remake) on the Wii?  It's not that hard.  I went through the first two circuits largely without any problem.  I never could have done that with the older titles.  Not even close.  The only time the Wii Sports games are difficult is when the controls fail, like in shooting hoops or that broken baseball sim.

Hell, for that matter, Metroid: Other M is easier than pretty much anything else from Team Ninja--and to be honest, the only real challenge I had with the game was illogical design choices and the game's surprising cheap deaths.  Seriously now, the "concentration" to refill your health is an insult considering how rare it is for that move to be at all successful.  Only like two bosses ever featured attack patterns that allowed for any opening to use that damn move on health.  Aside from that, the game is largely a dumbed-down Metroid title.


What is your problem man?  The proof is that Nintendo had less to do with Prime 3 than any of the other games, as for why it's probably because the controls aren't complete ass in 3 like they were in Prime 1 & 2, you know not standing still helps when you don't want to be hit.  

I'm gonna be perfectly blunt play Trilogy 1 & 2 is easier cause of the control set up, it's also the Zelda effect, Zelda 64 "oh man this is nice difficulty" *three games with similar game play and difficulty curves later* "man this is just easy" like no shit you've learned how to play them well and designers are avoiding the NES days...

As for Other M having "cheap deaths" no it really doesn't if you die, you die cause you suck, if you can't use the concentration refill, you can't cause... you suck, every boss can be stunned and during that time you can heal... and if you actually beat the game like you say you have there's a freaking hard mode... honestly it's not cool if Metroid is as hard as Ninja Gaiden the first time around, they're just annoyingly hard.

@hsrob

It's also likely because Echoes sold like crap, there's just a point where you get so convoluted that you repel customers this includes your typical "core" buyers, Clover is a prime example of that, and what do you know when they were fired and made platinum games their games have modes you can get into, improve and move up, I love those guys for making brutal games and I buy all their stuff but I know I'm a minority that likes to kick myself in the pants with things like Super Ghouls and Ghosts, I'm against making the games easier but very pro difficulty settings so I can have my brutality and everyone else can enjoy it too.



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

Wii Friend Code - 5882 9717 7391 0918 (PM me if you add me), PSN - MaxwellGT2000, XBL - BlkKniteCecil, MaxwellGT2000

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Resident_Hazard on 22 September 2010
Khuutra said:
Resident_Hazard said:

Yeesh.  I don't expect you to nod along since you're set on disagreeing with anything I post.  I didn't present conjecture as proof, I presented a logical explanation for why Metroid Prime 3 was one of the easiest games ever.  Because it was intended to be in-line with damn near everything else on the Wii.  Simplified and easy for the casual "blue ocean" crowd.  Why else would the game have been made to be so easy?  Clearly, that's not how Retro works given the intense difficulty of the previous two entries.  Hardcore games for hardcore people on, let's face it, a hardcore system--which the GameCube was for all intents and purposes.  With the Wii, the focus was not the hardcore crowd, especially early on--it was to expand the market by appealing to the casual crowd.  How do you do that?  You make the game's more accessible, and one way to do that is to remove the overt difficulty found in many hardcore games. 

New Super Mario Bros Wii follows a similar example--ease added to the gameplay which allows gamers to skip parts of the game that are "too hard" for them--you know, "too hard" for the casual crowd. 

People act as if offended that I could dare think Nintendo wanted Prime 3 to be made easier with the reasoning to be the expanded audience.  Why the hell else would Retro suddenly break with the style of the previous games?  Give me a valid theory that is different than mine.  Don't just pop in and try to make yourself look superior by offering no valid conversation--all you did is come in and say "that's ridiculous. You don't have proof. Cite proof to a theory.  You don't know what logic is. I don't either, but I'm going to act like I do." 

Seriously dude, contribute.  Why else was Prime 3 so incredibly easy compared to Prime 1 and the incredibly punishing Prime 2?  What's your explanation?

Otherwise, all I see is a response from someone who's, somehow, offended by the idea that Nintendo is the reason Metroid Prime 3 was, to put it bluntly, dumbed down for the casual crowd.

Again, the Wii is all about ease, easier gameplay, and accessibility (where gameplay is concerned).  The vast majority of Nintendo's releases on the system, aside from Super Mario Galaxy 2, Sin & Punishment (and maybe another one) have  been light on difficulty and easy on gameplay.  I flat-out sucked at Punch-Out back in the day, and Super Punch-Out is notorious for it's difficulty.  The new one (essentially a remake) on the Wii?  It's not that hard.  I went through the first two circuits largely without any problem.  I never could have done that with the older titles.  Not even close.  The only time the Wii Sports games are difficult is when the controls fail, like in shooting hoops or that broken baseball sim.

Hell, for that matter, Metroid: Other M is easier than pretty much anything else from Team Ninja--and to be honest, the only real challenge I had with the game was illogical design choices and the game's surprising cheap deaths.  Seriously now, the "concentration" to refill your health is an insult considering how rare it is for that move to be at all successful.  Only like two bosses ever featured attack patterns that allowed for any opening to use that damn move on health.  Aside from that, the game is largely a dumbed-down Metroid title.

You're taking your experiences and extrapolating them into an objective reality, which is not the case. That's all there is.

Anything else you say on that point is irrelevant.

Pretending that a game being easy is Nintendo's fault when Nintendo had less to do with this game than any other is absolutely conjecture.

You're digressing all over the place.


And you are not offering any kind of conversation.  You're flaming and disagreeing simply because you want to.  If I'm wrong in my analysis, then offer analysis to counter it.  Jumping in over and over and just going, "no you're wrong. No you're wrong.  That's not the Nintendo I know.  That's not the Nintendo I know," actually offers nothing in the way of conversation.  You accused me of arguing earlier, and really, I have a theory and a point and have explained where it came from.  All you've done is leap in, flaming sword of flamingness in hand, and dismissed me sans point.  When you pick and choose minor points from my posts, you don't even elaborate on them, which means you're doing all this just to stir up drama, or possibly because you just want to harrass someone who... hell, actually, I didn't say anything negative or bad about Nintendo.  I really don't know what the hell you're point is in all this aside from to go out of your way to flame posts you don't even bother reading, and to dismiss ideas you don't even bother dismissing.

And what I asked for was something simple:  Give me another valid reason why Metroid Prime 3 was suddenly extremely easy (difficulty-wise) compared to the prior titles.  You'd think a counter theory to mine wouldn't have been hard to manufacter if you had one.  And if you did have one, why not actually just state it? 

I simply asked you to contribute and to offer a counter theory.  To have a conversation and to pay attention.  Instead, you responded yet again with little more than hollow personal attacks, in essence, you flamed. 

Might as well move on from this since you haven't bothered to offer up anything other than petty arguing for the sake of petty arguing.



Resident_Hazard on 22 September 2010
MaxwellGT2000 said:


What is your problem man?  The proof is that Nintendo had less to do with Prime 3 than any of the other games, as for why it's probably because the controls aren't complete ass in 3 like they were in Prime 1 & 2, you know not standing still helps when you don't want to be hit.  

I'm gonna be perfectly blunt play Trilogy 1 & 2 is easier cause of the control set up, it's also the Zelda effect, Zelda 64 "oh man this is nice difficulty" *three games with similar game play and difficulty curves later* "man this is just easy" like no shit you've learned how to play them well and designers are avoiding the NES days...

As for Other M having "cheap deaths" no it really doesn't if you die, you die cause you suck, if you can't use the concentration refill, you can't cause... you suck, every boss can be stunned and during that time you can heal... and if you actually beat the game like you say you have there's a freaking hard mode... honestly it's not cool if Metroid is as hard as Ninja Gaiden the first time around, they're just annoyingly hard.

 


Nintendo "having less to do with Prime 3" does not magically explain away that what "little" they did say, when what they said would have been "make the game a lot more accessible (easy), we're trying to attract a new audience."  I don't know what the hell you're talking about per "standing still and getting hit" in Metroid Prime 1 and 2 since you could freely move around while targeting enemy characters in the games--and any of us who played the games know this.  Other M is where you can't move, and where the built-in dodge move regularly fails in 1st-person mode.  You're also acting like the "controls are better in Prime 3" as if it's a fact, and that's just your opinion.  Frankly, I never had problems with the controls in Prime 1 or 2 because they made perfect sense for the adventure/exploration feel of the games. 

Yes, Other M has cheap deaths, but to be fair, they're not ultra numerous and they're a far cry from the countless other problems plaguing the game.  Like a narrative only a 12 year old would think is anything other than hyper-cliche, character-bashing trite.  Maybe if I wasn't familiar with what makes a good cinematic narrative, or hadn't bothered playing any of the very mature stories found elsewhere in gaming, such as Fallout 3, Bioshock 1 and 2, Eternal Darkness, etc, I would think that Other M isn't so bad.  But I'm familiar with the character of Samus Aran, and I'm familiar with good narratives in both games and film, so Other M is crappola in that department.  But I digress.  Offhand, the first cheap death I can think of is when I was running through the volcano turned around for a moment, only to be suddenly killed outright by the creature in the lava with no warning or anything.  That's pretty lame.

Yeah dude, I died because I suck.  That's an intelligent response.  Take note, while I call anyone thinking that childish narrative is good a 12-year-old, at least I didn't get my knickers in a bunch and just spit "you suck" at anyone for it.  I made a metaphor about how amateurish the lame-ass writing of Other M really is.  Oh right, bosses can be stunned.  Right... what are the chances that was going to happen right when I needed to use the Concentration?  Yeah, it never happened that way.  Frankly, Phantoon was impossible to fight that way since, the one time he was stunned, there was still other shit to deal with.  Besides, when they're stunned is when Samus was supposed to use the kill-shot anyway, so by that time, well, the battle is over.  Hell, that's how I finally figured I'd bested Phantoon because there was finally that opening.  Being forced to sit and charge, and be defenseless while doing it, in order to use the emergency energy is a shitty design choice, and that's all it is.  In Super Metroid, the emergency tanks refilled automatically--and that made perfect sense--especially when that tank was refilling while Mother Brain was draining my life since I skimped on collecting too much in order to get that best ending.

Seriously, stop defending bad design choices just because Nintendo's name is on the thing.  If Other M wasn't a Metroid title--if it was a one-off title of it's own making, would you be so forgiving?  Fuck no you wouldn't.  You'd dismiss it the way most Nintendo fans shat all over several otherwise decent non-Nintendo-published Wii games.  You'd say, "well, Team Ninja made a game on the Wii, but we wanted Ninja Gaiden and this isn't Ninja Gaiden, so we're disappointed, and by the way, there are a lot of crappy design choices here."

For that matter, why the hell is it offensive to you if someone states that "Nintendo requested this item of a franchise they own, to fit with the target audience of a system they developed?"  I mean, if it was all Retro choosing to make Prime 3 easy, why did they choose that?  And don't suddenly assume that the Wiimote made the game easier, because that has nothing to do with it at all.  The game was played, largely, the exact same way, except now I had to hold my arm up for ridiculous amounts of time.  I still locked onto everything, and strafed like in Prime 1 and 2 because, yes, you could actually move in those games.  I don't know why you're assuming we couldn't move...

What I do know is that the games in the main Prime series are all excellent titles despite the relative flaws of parts 2 and 3--they all adore the exploration theme and deep brooding atmosphere that made Metroid such a special franchise to begin with.  Prime 3 had all the challenge removed, but at least it still had a beautiful atmosphere, gorgeous vistas, clever puzzles, and depth.  To attempt to dismiss the first two games for controls that we fans of the series rightly defended for all these years, just because you want to think Prime 3 controlled better just because of the Wiimote is annoying.  Honestly, the motion controls added nothing to the series.  Sure, they were kinda cool, but that was it. 

 

I wanted to love Other M, dude, I really did.  I couldn't wait for it.  I almost never preorder games, but I preordered Other M.  And I'm a positively huge Metroid fan.  I have two favorite franchises and one of them is Metroid and the other is well, obvious.  But I'm not going to sit here and forgive Other M just because it's Metroid or just because it's a Nintendo franchise.  Bad design is still bad design.  The exploration is grossly neutered, the combat is mindless, the first person mode is shit, the scanning is lame, the forced pixel-hunting moments are asinine, there are no new items, there are a few cheap deaths, there are no new weapons or items, it's rampant with illogical nonsensical design, the narrative is cliched ham-fisted crap that doesn't even reach the levels of the lowest SyFy-original movie, and as per Samus Aran herself--this game defines the term character assassination.  If you ever actually loved Metroid or Samus, you shouldn't forgive this offense, you should be pissed.  Frankly, I think that tacking on a lame-ass "space marines/military doing battle" cliche was the last thing the Metroid franchise needed.  Well, that, and completely butchering a beloved character.

Space Marines are for Doom, Halo, Gears of War, and whatever James Cameron does next.  That crap doesn't belong in Metroid.



Khuutra on 22 September 2010
Resident_Hazard said:


And you are not offering any kind of conversation.  You're flaming and disagreeing simply because you want to.  If I'm wrong in my analysis, then offer analysis to counter it.  Jumping in over and over and just going, "no you're wrong. No you're wrong.  That's not the Nintendo I know.  That's not the Nintendo I know," actually offers nothing in the way of conversation.  You accused me of arguing earlier, and really, I have a theory and a point and have explained where it came from.  All you've done is leap in, flaming sword of flamingness in hand, and dismissed me sans point.  When you pick and choose minor points from my posts, you don't even elaborate on them, which means you're doing all this just to stir up drama, or possibly because you just want to harrass someone who... hell, actually, I didn't say anything negative or bad about Nintendo.  I really don't know what the hell you're point is in all this aside from to go out of your way to flame posts you don't even bother reading, and to dismiss ideas you don't even bother dismissing.

And what I asked for was something simple:  Give me another valid reason why Metroid Prime 3 was suddenly extremely easy (difficulty-wise) compared to the prior titles.  You'd think a counter theory to mine wouldn't have been hard to manufacter if you had one.  And if you did have one, why not actually just state it? 

I simply asked you to contribute and to offer a counter theory.  To have a conversation and to pay attention.  Instead, you responded yet again with little more than hollow personal attacks, in essence, you flamed. 

Might as well move on from this since you haven't bothered to offer up anything other than petty arguing for the sake of petty arguing.

That is neither what "flaming" nor "personal attacks" means.

You are under the impression that an alternative hypothesis (it would not be a theory any more than your hypothesis is; to reiterate, you have a hypothesis, not a theory) would be necessary to disprove yours. It's not. Your hypothesis has already been undermined and shown as groundless. Any alternative hypotheses would only come as a result of being pedantic. I am not going to be pedantic. I'm going to quote the developer.

http://wii.ign.com/articles/708/708948p2.html

The relevant line, with emphasis by me:

IGN: How do you think the game length and difficulty will compare to Prime 2 or 1?

Kensuke Tanabe: It may be easier than Prime 2 because now we can control the game more intuitively. Also, we are thinking to make the game more up-tempo or faster-paced than Prime 2.

You will take note that he does not describe it as easier than the first Prime, and any difference in difficulty between Echoes and Corruption is primarily attributed to the new controls. No indication of Nintendo involvement; it comes down to better controls = easier to play effectively.

Metroid Prime 3 was not objectively easier than the first two games, particularly in the context of the Metroid Prime Trilogy, and any perceived difference came from a combination of experience with the formula in the Cube games and the introduction of far superior controls. Echoes was less well-balanced than Corruption, but with the same controls it's sitll the easier game; enemies in Corruption take more damage, deal more damage, move more quickly and erratically, and have more complicated attack patterns. Substandard boss design for one or two bosses does not equate to Echoes being significantly harder than Corruption.

The argument you present comes down to "you are just flaming me, stop it, why are you such a stereotypical Nintendo fan". That is neither engaging nor itneresting.

Your hypothesis is groundless.